A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

Postby GrahamB on Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:24 am

A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/66-yiquan

" This time we look at Yiquan, a derivative of Xing Yi, putting it in the context of the Miasma of the late Nineteenth and early Twentieth centuries. "

Tom is to blame ;)
I could be wrong.
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Re: A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

Postby Yeung on Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:18 am

A derivative of Xing Yi? But Xingyiquan don't even have their basic Hunyuan posture.
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Re: A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

Postby Tom on Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:55 pm

GrahamB wrote: . . . " This time we look at Yiquan, a derivative of Xing Yi, putting it in the context of the Miasma of the late Nineteenth and early Twentieth centuries. "

Tom is to blame ;)


You're welcome. 8-)

Wang Xiangzhai 1885-1963
Sun Lutang 1860-1933
Guo Yunshen 1829-1898 (possibly 1901/2)


Wang could not have been more than 13 (or 16 with the later death date for Guo) when Guo passed away. So he could not have been “a young man in his 20s” and trained with Guo.
Sun Lutang was 38 (or 41 with the later death date for Guo). Sun had moved on to baguazhang with Cheng Tinghua by the early 1890s. Guo was still involved with his security business at that time, not teaching “large public classes.” Sun trained with Guo in the 1870s to the early 1880s.

Other than those kefluffles about conclusions based on erroneous dates, I think Damon offered some interesting perspective on yiquan vis-à-vis (Hebei/Guo) xingyiquan. One thing I learned from the recent discussion Byron Stout had with James Carss on the Drunken Boxing podcast is that Hebei lines of xingyi may include some practices similar to yiquan’s shi li, but in the context of specific animal xing practice (Byron specifically mentions dragon). This is one small example of yiquan roots in xingyiquan.

Damon and you do need to get to Sun Lutang sooner rather than later. The entire paradigm of "internal" Chinese martial arts depends on Sun and his writings. It's going to take more than the half-hour given to Yiquan (after the breaking news about the source of the rocks at Stonehenge).
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Re: A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

Postby GrahamB on Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:04 pm

Many online sources stating Guo Yunshen's death are mixed but in our oral tradition Damon had always said Guo passed away in 1911 (a recently shared photograph shows Guo in Beijing in 1902 as an older man. 1902 is later than most records of his death online so actual date of death is very likely later than 1902.). So if Wang was born in 1885 and Gou died in 1911, and Wang is said to have been Guo's nephew by marriage therefore a close relation, then I think it highly likely that he was taught directly by Guo as a young man and teenager for a number of years.

(Personally I'm a bit undecided about that photo from 1902 - who knows who it really is).

I don't really understand the hype around Sun Lu Tang. I personally don't find him, or his versions of the arts, very interesting compared to Wang or Guo, for instance, so I think it's unlikely we'll cover him.

Keep up the good work with the fact checking, though.
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Re: A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:19 pm

Tom wrote:Damon and you do need to get to Sun Lutang sooner rather than later. The entire paradigm of "internal" Chinese martial arts depends on Sun and his writings.


I would like to hear it. Because I really don’t agree with this generally accepted thing. It’s just not true and the concept of “internal“ would have been just as strong without him.

GrahamB wrote:I don't really understand the hype around Sun Lu Tang. I personally don't find him, or his versions of the arts, very interesting compared to Wang or Guo, for instance,


This is something I agree with though. Overhyped, definitely overhyped. And how his arts are usually taught is ridiculously simple stuff.

But if you can see beyond the common myths and the saintly persona he was a very interesting fellow, and what very few know, in fact a really tough guy. Not just tough, but really, really tough.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

Postby Tom on Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:03 pm

GrahamB wrote:. . . in our oral tradition Damon had always said Guo passed away in 1911 . . .


Damon confused Guo with the Qing Dynasty. ;)

Actually Damon said he believes that Wang must have studied with Guo for a number of years based on technical resonance between (Guo) xingyi and yiquan.

I don't really understand the hype around Sun Lu Tang. I personally don't find him, or his versions of the arts, very interesting compared to Wang or Guo, for instance, so I think it's unlikely we'll cover him.


Damon is the source of the hype about Sun Lutang on Heretics, fairly sputtering with frustration and derision over how much SLT's writings and teaching contributed to the miasma surrounding the modernization and mythification of the internal Chinese martial arts. And no less a heretic than Graham Barlow called SLT "one of the most influential Chinese martial artists of all time." https://thetaichinotebook.com/2019/10/18/kung-fu-tea-on-sun-lu-tang/ . No reasonable scholar of martial studies looking at the modernization and mythification of the internal Chinese martial arts would ignore Sun Lutang. But I guess not all heretics are reasonable, or scholars. ;) ;D

Keep up the good work with the fact checking, though.


Fact checking? What are facts? Here in America these days facts are regarded as myths, enshrined as such by the first amendment to the US Constitution.

If you're talking about harassment based on investigation and intel, it's just a professional reflex born of decades in the business. I'm not charging you for it. ;D
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Re: A chat about Xing Yi and Yi Quan

Postby GrahamB on Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:05 pm

Sun was certainly influential, but he's not my cup of kung fu tea.
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