What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Trip on Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:49 pm

Some of you guys might be way too strict with the whole body coordination theory issue.

It's a timing thing of when specific parts are supposed to coordinate with another with each other at a specific time and angle.

It’s a fools folly to try to fight someone with such theoretical nonsense that Everything (whole body) coordinates together at all times.

Specific parts of the body coordinate at specific times for maximum usage efficiency in a particular system of fighting.
Different fighting systems use different systems of coordination.

Like when doing yang brush knee the rear hand and the front step coordinate at specific angle but after that the coordination is with different parts of the body for different application coordination

The trick is getting the right training (for your system) of what parts are supposed to coordinate with each other that maximize the effect on an opponent.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:42 pm

johnwang wrote:It's harder to coordinate punch with your back leg. The time between you bend your back leg and the time you straight your back leg is too long. It's harder to coordinate your punch with that long time period (unless you punch very slow).

https://i.postimg.cc/05htmMYZ/Liao-Chen-Taiji-Fajin.gif

You shouldn't stomp your back foot and "straight your back leg." You should push off the back leg, coordinate open/close bows, rotation with correct timing, transfer weight to the front foot, then into opponent. This is less commitment, telegraph and faster than stepping with every punch.

Old guy (50's) KO young punk:

Image

johnwang wrote:It's easier to coordinate punch with your leading leg. Since the foot landing is so noticeable, it's much easier to coordinate punch with leading foot landing.

https://i.postimg.cc/Zq5Zps1K/Adam-cross.gif[/img]

However, it telegraphs, takes longer and the opponent may be too close to step. Stepping depends on how far the opponent is. Internal should be able to to generate power with less movement.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Bhassler on Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:49 pm



IIRC, the "old guy" was a former pro boxing champ. You might as well say "professional fighter beats untrained child". Professionals typically have genetic gifts and access to training that are far beyond what a typical person does, so what a pro does may or may not be relevant to the rest of us.

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:It's easier to coordinate punch with your leading leg. Since the foot landing is so noticeable, it's much easier to coordinate punch with leading foot landing.

https://i.postimg.cc/Zq5Zps1K/Adam-cross.gif[/img]

However, it telegraphs, takes longer and the opponent may be too close to step.


A simple drop step solves all of those problems. (I don't care one way or the other, just making conversation.)
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:29 am

Old guy ("Champ") just does the old 1-2. However, in terms of this overall conversation, his legs propel him toward the opponent; it's his hips and waist that deliver the power. The technique of power delivery, imo, is closer to (moving step) taijiquan than most of the other examples given so far. Jmo.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:40 pm

Some of you guys might be way too strict with the whole body coordination theory issue.

It's a timing thing of when specific parts are supposed to coordinate with another with each other at a specific time and angle.

It’s a fools folly to try to fight someone with such theoretical nonsense that Everything (whole body) coordinates together at all times.

Specific parts of the body coordinate at specific times for maximum usage efficiency in a particular system of fighting.
Different fighting systems use different systems of coordination.


1. It’s not about theory. It’s about practical practice and about learning a way to move through practice and awareness. A way you learn to move, a way to move that becomes second nature. It’s not something that is hard to switch on because it becomes a natural way to move.

2. No one says that everything need to move together at all times when you fight. In solo practice, the body initiates and leads the movements of the limbs. When you fight, the limb need to move first when you strike and the body follows up so there is whole body alignment and coordination upon impact. You only need to move with your body as an integrated whole when you have actual physical contact with your opponent.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby GrahamB on Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:53 pm

So internal is only internal if you're touching somebody else? Got it. Makes sense.

Image
I could be wrong.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby johnwang on Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:57 pm

Trip wrote:Some of you guys might be way too strict with the whole body coordination theory issue.

In your daily training, you either train body unification, or you don't. There is nothing in between. The body unification is not only for power generation. it's also for speed generation.

In the following clip, he move his left hand, right hand, and left leg together. this make a 1, 2, 3 move into 1 move. Can people without training be able to do this? I don't think so.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:12 pm

GrahamB wrote:So internal is only internal if you're touching somebody else? Got it. Makes sense.


No, you forgot the second part - to adapt and adjust to the opponent on distance.

And no, you don't need to connect your own structure even on touching your opponent.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Trip on Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:03 pm

Okay, Bao, if your system is good for you, Great :)

johnwang wrote:In your daily training, you either train body unification, or you don't. There is nothing in between. The body unification is not only for power generation. it's also for speed generation.

In the following clip, he move his left hand, right hand, and left leg together. this make a 1, 2, 3 move into 1 move. Can people without training be able to do this? I don't think so.

Image


John, as I said, "some of you guys might be way too strict..."
Even your GIF example is restrictive.

But, if you're happy with your training, so be it. Stick with your "either or's." They work for you.
I've got no problem with you.
Not trying to tell you, what you, John, must do

I just made an observation from what I read on page 3 :)
Last edited by Trip on Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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