What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:59 pm

the Mandarin Culture to which you refer no longer exists.

It is so sad. We have told the Chinese years ago that they will have to turn to non-Chinese to learn Chinese Kungfu, and the only advantage that they have is the traits of Chinese culture/philosophy remained with them in their blood. An undeniable fact is to be able to find a qualified Chinese teacher is kind of luck.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby shawnsegler on Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:32 am

Clickbaiters gonna clickbait.

:P


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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Tom on Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:57 pm

Here's what I train for with internal practice:

Intent – the ability to develop a quality of intent, which orchestrates body connections and structure in response to internal and external stimulus.
Awareness– the ability to send out awareness into undiscovered areas of your body and thereby build finer and more intelligent connections and alignment.
Neutrality– the active ability to remain physically, mentally and emotionally neutral.
Balance and movement– the ability to maintain intent in all six directions while moving.
Listening– the ability to develop finer and finer proprioceptive sensitivity to internal change.
Relaxed tension– the ability to maintain a fine inner tension and micro gyrations within your body such that you can move effortlessly in any direction.
Yin Yang / In Yo– the ability to reconcile and direct opposing forces – expanding and condensing in all directions simultaneously.


http://www.itten.nl/retraining-body-and-mind/

I think "internal" is most usefully defined as a set of attributes/principles to be trained, rather than a specific martial art or lineage or label.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:19 am

Ah, you're just quoting,
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Bhassler on Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:46 am

Tom wrote:Intent – the ability to develop a quality of intent, which orchestrates body connections and structure in response to internal and external stimulus.
Awareness– the ability to send out awareness into undiscovered areas of your body and thereby build finer and more intelligent connections and alignment.
Neutrality– the active ability to remain physically, mentally and emotionally neutral.
Balance and movement– the ability to maintain intent in all six directions while moving.
Listening– the ability to develop finer and finer proprioceptive sensitivity to internal change.
Relaxed tension– the ability to maintain a fine inner tension and micro gyrations within your body such that you can move effortlessly in any direction.
Yin Yang / In Yo– the ability to reconcile and direct opposing forces – expanding and condensing in all directions simultaneously.



I would consider this less "internal" and more "not sucking". Every good fighter I've ever met does these things, though obviously the terminology will differ depending upon the individual's background.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby BruceP on Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:16 pm

Bhassler wrote:I would consider this less "internal" and more "not sucking". Every good fighter I've ever met does these things, though obviously the terminology will differ depending upon the individual's background.


Yep

So lips is tic? I'm so lips I stic

That's the difference between those whose background shapes their understanding of practical application from those who frame their understanding to suit an ideal.

Intent to affect change
Awareness when intent matches chi
Neutrality is no-self
Being open to, and accepting change, is listening

Practicing Neutrality Principle and central equilibrium cultivates spontaneous response

Just like Chuang's parable of the belt and the shoe; When the work fits, the self is forgotten

Adhering to the principles and methods, proper training and time spent takes care of everything else
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Bao on Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:42 pm

Here's what I train for with internal practice:

http://www.itten.nl/retraining-body-and-mind/

I think "internal" is most usefully defined as a set of attributes/principles to be trained, rather than a specific martial art or lineage or label.


Oh, an Aiki page. Do you believe that there’s any difference between Chinese and Japanese definitions or appreciation of terms? And if so, how would you explain it?
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Tom on Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:29 pm

Bao wrote:
Here's what I train for with internal practice:

http://www.itten.nl/retraining-body-and-mind/

I think "internal" is most usefully defined as a set of attributes/principles to be trained, rather than a specific martial art or lineage or label.


Oh, an Aiki page. Do you believe that there’s any difference between Chinese and Japanese definitions or appreciation of terms? And if so, how would you explain it?


No, Graham, this is what I train--better expressed by someone with training experience in common who's been at it longer.

Bao, I've trained with very high-level--in terms of hands-on skill under pressure--exponents of both Chinese and Japanese martial traditions conventionally labeled external and internal. I don't have a "belief" about differences between Chinese and Japanese definitions or appreciation of terms because I don't speak either language well and I train and understand in English. The exponents of the Chinese martial traditions had the more intellectually-developed theory but the exponents of the Japanese arts had far better combative skill and the ability to demonstrate principles in a hands-on feel-me fight-me fashion.

Yes the attributes listed should be seen and trained for in any good fighter. That's my point. "Internal" is part of the continuum from sucking to not sucking to combative excellence. Internal is demonstrated at the highest levels of MMA and Western boxing and Muay Thai. Internal is not putting lipstick on a lumberjack. Internal is about identifying specific attributes and training them until those attributes are internalized (pun intended) to the point where they manifest in the fighter under combative pressure.

It may not satisfy the intellectual aesthetes who pound harder with their fingertips than their fists and who have promulgated snake-eating-its-own-tail death-spiral arguments about topics with little real-world relevance since the inception of this forum. None of the progenitors of the arts for which this forum is named indulged in vacuous ego-pricking intellectual ramblings about their martial skills and conditioning.

John Wang is the most "internal" member of this forum. Just sayin'.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby GrahamB on Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:19 am

Nothing is as internal as a good rant on Rumsoakedfist.

In a hundred years social historians will look back at this strange obsession over internal amongst martial artists at the turn of the century and decide it was all about going on the internet and telling other people they were wrong.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Steve James on Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:18 am

all about going on the internet and telling other people they were wrong.


But, what else is the internet for, especially when it comes to "internal"? This was perhaps the oldest debate in tcma when internet bulletin boards (alt-rec-martialarts) were born.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Tom on Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:32 am

Steve James wrote:
all about going on the internet and telling other people they were wrong.


But, what else is the internet for, especially when it comes to "internal"? This was perhaps the oldest debate in tcma when internet bulletin boards (alt-rec-martialarts) were born.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8TflIIfuhs


Ah the good old days . . . and now we have Internet podcasts to tell people they are wrong. :)
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:30 pm

For me, internal external is only as useful as the terminology relates to practical differences in technique/combat method. Internal/External is essentially just a way to say this/that, similar to saying yin/yang; It doesn't really matter which is yin or which is yang, only that one is this and the other is that.

That being said, the way I use "internal" is to talk about how we generate power. When you have a distance, if your outside moves to cover that distance (your limbs), that is an external movement. When your inside (torso) moves to cover a distance, that movement is internal. When you move through the distance that your opponent is in, you encounter resistance. If you are trying to cover the distance with your arms, you'll feel you need a lot of strength in your arms to move through your opponents resistance. If you are moving through the range with your torso, you'll feel that your leg/core strength, coupled with your mass/structure, allows you to move through much greater resistance with less effort.

Practically speaking and according to my methodology, internal training is to expand the range of the torso movement so as to be capable of moving through a greater range, cover more distance, and overall move through your opponents resistance much easier than external methods.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:19 pm

All fighting arts incorporate both 'internal' and 'external' components in varying degrees. However, by direct comparison, every authentic IMA style emphasizes a more conscious, deliberate study and investigation of mental functions, as they relate to combat arts. Thus, these may include the use of meditation, contemplation, self-hypnosis, auto-suggestion, mental visualizations and verbal affirmations, etc, as an integral part of a training regimen. Results vary according to personal efforts.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:31 pm

In a hundred years social historians will look back at this strange obsession over internal amongst martial artists at the turn of the century and decide it was all about going on the internet and telling other people they were wrong.


Except for when it's people talking about how they're right.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby JessOBrien on Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:51 pm

Training advice of Li Cun Yi from Hsing-I: Chinese Mind-Body Boxing by RW Smith:

"The main purpose of Hsing-i, Pa-kua and T'ai-chi is to develop the one ch'i, so that the inner strength becomes great.

Carefully examine your opponents- their bearing, gestures, and manner of speaking. This is internal boxing, as contrasted with external boxing.

Often it is difficult to feel whether an opponent is an internal or external boxer. I have seen some who appear soft as a pretense. I have been tricked, but I was never killed because I stayed alert."
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