What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:32 am

Tom wrote:Yes the attributes listed should be seen and trained for in any good fighter. That's my point. "Internal" is part of the continuum from sucking to not sucking to combative excellence. Internal is demonstrated at the highest levels of MMA and Western boxing and Muay Thai. Internal is not putting lipstick on a lumberjack. Internal is about identifying specific attributes and training them until those attributes are internalized (pun intended) to the point where they manifest in the fighter under combative pressure.


Yes, you can see internal attributes in arts from all styles. IMO "internal" is not about the results and instead about certain ways to practice, about learning and being aware of "internal attributes" right from the start of training so that you can develop them consciously and have them as a goal. Sure, anyone can understand and find them. But I strongly believe that it's a pity if they only come as a side-effect of other practice. Then it will become a matter of gift, instinct and pure luck how you find them.

JessOBrien wrote:Training advice of Li Cun Yi from Hsing-I: Chinese Mind-Body Boxing by RW Smith:

"The main purpose of Hsing-i, Pa-kua and T'ai-chi is to develop the one ch'i, so that the inner strength becomes great.


Oh, I really, really hate these direct translations. It so often becomes mumbo-jumbo nonsense. So what does "one qi" mean? Qi can mean "movement", "breath" and "qi" can mean that everything, all of the individual parts in a certain closed system works as good as possible together as a whole.

So "developing the One Qi" means the unification of the whole system. In the Chinese internal martial arts the main idea is how to coordinate everything together, all of our body together in one movement, together with mind, breath and spirit harmonising together as one, as a whole. We learn to use and coordinate everything together as a whole. Achieving this is achieving "The One Qi"

Sorry, but I really don't see how any "external" martial art work consciously and directly on this, not even on unifying the body as one whole. And even less on unifying the unifies body with mind, breath and spirit. Not even BJJ though everyone is constantly yapping about how internal the style is. So again, IMO, "internal" is a way to practice, and a way how to think and act, not a bi-product of training, or something that shows up occasionally.

Carefully examine your opponents- their bearing, gestures, and manner of speaking. This is internal boxing, as contrasted with external boxing.


This is another aspect, about how to read and adapt to the opponent even on distance. I can see a few other styles work hard on this as well, but maybe not as a general principle. But... Uhm... in fact, and honestly... I don't see this in most internal schools either. This is mostly a lost aspect of the internal arts that is more found in external arts nowadays, because the majority of the lineages and schools of the internal arts have lost most of the fighting strategies and tactics already a long time ago.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Quigga on Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:56 am

Re: the observation of / gathering intelligence from another person / letting the impression of another body through:

Serge Augier has nice info on this in Urban Violence:


https://lineofintent.com/product/urban- ... ge-augier/

And it's a topic I would file under listening to energy.

Edit: I imagine Dr. Glen Morris and Santiago Dobles have much more info on this in Hoshin Jutsu and Ninpo (hope it's spelled right).
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:00 am

don't see how any "external" martial art work consciously and directly on this, not even on unifying the body as one whole. And even less on unifying the unifies body with mind, breath and spirit.

I briefly learned Shaolin, Hung Ka, Southern praying mantis (if they are "external"), they do work on unifying the body as one whole, and the unifies body with mind, breath and spirit. "One Qi" is their basic foundation training.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Dmitri on Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:23 am

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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:11 am

suckinlhbf wrote:I briefly learned Shaolin, Hung Ka, Southern praying mantis (if they are "external"), they do work on unifying the body as one whole, and the unifies body with mind, breath and spirit. "One Qi" is their basic foundation training.


I don’t doubt that they can be internal as well as other styles, but I believe that the different schools vary a lot. I’ve practiced a bit of external Shaolin and Hunggar. They moved with their body parts individually and disconnected. No unification there. I’ve also practiced internal Shaolin and learned an internal Hunggar set.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:42 am

Bao wrote:I’ve practiced a bit of external Shaolin and Hunggar. They moved with their body parts individually and disconnected. No unification there.

All body parts start to move at the same time, and also all body parts stop at the same time is the basic training requirement for all CMA systems.

Here is the Baji basic moves by Chang Yu-Gang. You don't see any "move with body parts individually and disconnected".



To use soft to deal with hard can be seen in this Baji clip.

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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:00 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:I’ve practiced a bit of external Shaolin and Hunggar. They moved with their body parts individually and disconnected. No unification there.

All body parts start to move at the same time, and also all body parts stop at the same time is the basic training requirement for all CMA systems.


For most of the northern styles it should be a basic requirement or a general principle. However, if you watch southern styles as Wing Chun or White Crane they often don’t. Even in northern styles that rule is not always prevalent as in Tan Tui sets.

https://youtu.be/eQ0MhvPlTTc
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:02 pm

Jess - I quite like "when the Qi is one" as a definition of internal. Specifically because it can apply to music, dance or art too.

I'm entirey happy with the idea that "internal" can have a function for classification and sorting, but simultaneously lack any meaning.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:21 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:I’ve practiced a bit of external Shaolin and Hunggar. They moved with their body parts individually and disconnected. No unification there.

All body parts start to move at the same time, and also all body parts stop at the same time is the basic training requirement for all CMA systems.
johnwang wrote:Unless we want to throw away the basic CMA building block "6 harmony", the hand and foot coordination is a must. There should be no feet stop moving but hand is still moving.

You appear to contradict yourself (or I'm not understanding). Can you explain your following posts?

"Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch:"
johnwang wrote:Image


"Coordinate your punch with your foot landing:"
johnwang wrote:In this clip, his striking arm coordinates with his back leg.

Image
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:51 pm

I’ve practiced a bit of external Shaolin and Hunggar. They moved with their body parts individually and disconnected.

Even when we look at the "internal" xingyi, bagua, taiji practitioners, a lot of them moves their body parts individually and disconnected. It is on where they are at.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:17 pm

marvin8 wrote:You appear to contradict yourself (or I'm not understanding). Can you explain your following posts?

When you hold on some weight (such as a brick), your arm is hard to stop when your leg stop moving. The brick momentum will pull your arm forward even if your hand stops completely.

Today, this is the only "cross" that I like to train. But I can't hold on weight and punch like this (weight and speed don't go together).

Image
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:31 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You appear to contradict yourself (or I'm not understanding). Can you explain your following posts?

When you hold on some weight (such as a brick), your arm is hard to stop when your leg stop moving. The brick momentum will pull your arm forward even if your hand stops completely.

What about the post without the brick?

johnwang wrote:Unless we want to throw away the basic CMA building block "6 harmony", the hand and foot coordination is a must. There should be no feet stop moving but hand is still moving. ...

"Coordinate your punch with your foot landing:"
johnwang wrote:In this clip, his striking arm coordinates with his back leg.

Image
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:42 pm

marvin8 wrote:What about the post without the brick?

I don't understand your question.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:52 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:What about the post without the brick?

I don't understand your question.

You said, "There should be no feet stop moving but hand is still moving. ..." But, your GIF shows the feet stop moving but hand is still moving and it does not "Coordinate your punch with your foot landing." You also said, "All body parts start to move at the same time, and also all body parts stop at the same time is the basic training requirement for all CMA systems." How does your examples match your statements?

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You appear to contradict yourself (or I'm not understanding). Can you explain your following posts?

When you hold on some weight (such as a brick), your arm is hard to stop when your leg stop moving. The brick momentum will pull your arm forward even if your hand stops completely.

What about the post without the brick?

johnwang wrote:Unless we want to throw away the basic CMA building block "6 harmony", the hand and foot coordination is a must. There should be no feet stop moving but hand is still moving. ...

"Coordinate your punch with your foot landing:"
johnwang wrote:In this clip, his striking arm coordinates with his back leg.

Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is internal? Finally, the answer...

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:09 pm

marvin8 wrote:You said, "There should be no feet stop moving but hand is still moving. ..." But, your GIF shows the feet stop moving but hand is still moving and it does not "Coordinate your punch with your foot landing." How does your example match your statements?

I used to train both ways (back leg bend -> back leg straight, and leading foot landing). Today, I only train 1 way (leading foot landing). This require me to step in for all my punches and I no long train "slow punch".

It's harder to coordinate punch with your back leg. The time between you bend your back leg and the time you straight your back leg is too long. It's harder to coordinate your punch with that long time period (unless you punch very slow).

Image

It's easier to coordinate punch with your leading leg. Since the foot landing is so noticeable, it's much easier to coordinate punch with leading foot landing.

Image
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