Soft beats hard

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Soft beats hard

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:30 am

uncomfortable explaining

It is hard to explain and comprehend. It involves two different approaches - train from/with outside (外景), and train from/with inside (内景). Both of them go with physical and mental. The feeling from outside (外景) is subtle, and from inside (内景) is intense.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby dspyrido on Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:27 pm

Quigga wrote:Windwalker, those weren't my words. I was quoting Wee Kee Jin. I feel uncomfortable explaining something where I don't have at least some proficiency. Let's just say that to do what Adam Mizner, Liang de Hua, Mikhail Ryabko, Kelley Graham, Sam Chin, maybe Dan Harden do, Mark Rasmus to some extent, "only" physical mechanistic explanations aren't enough. IMO.


Let's do a thought experiment.

How would that list go against some top ufc guys? Khabib, Demetrious Johnson, Adesanya, Stipe, Ngannou etc

Would they:

- get smashed?
- switch and look like other mma guys eg hoping, moving and exhibiting good cardio?
- operate at a hidden soft level smoothly sticking, snapping joints and ballistic hitting?
- exhibit mystical barely touching & bouncing the opponents around?
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby Bhassler on Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:37 pm

dspyrido wrote:
Quigga wrote:Windwalker, those weren't my words. I was quoting Wee Kee Jin. I feel uncomfortable explaining something where I don't have at least some proficiency. Let's just say that to do what Adam Mizner, Liang de Hua, Mikhail Ryabko, Kelley Graham, Sam Chin, maybe Dan Harden do, Mark Rasmus to some extent, "only" physical mechanistic explanations aren't enough. IMO.


Let's do a thought experiment.

How would that list go against some top ufc guys? Khabib, Demetrious Johnson, Adesanya, Stipe, Ngannou etc


I've got $100 to contribute to the kickstarter campaign to make it happen.

Okay, maybe not Kelley Graham or Sam Chin, those guys are cool, but the rest, for sure.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:49 pm

A few in that list I wouldn't think twice about taking on
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby AJG on Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:09 am

dspyrido wrote:
Quigga wrote:Windwalker, those weren't my words. I was quoting Wee Kee Jin. I feel uncomfortable explaining something where I don't have at least some proficiency. Let's just say that to do what Adam Mizner, Liang de Hua, Mikhail Ryabko, Kelley Graham, Sam Chin, maybe Dan Harden do, Mark Rasmus to some extent, "only" physical mechanistic explanations aren't enough. IMO.


Let's do a thought experiment.

How would that list go against some top ufc guys? Khabib, Demetrious Johnson, Adesanya, Stipe, Ngannou etc

Would they:

- get smashed?
- switch and look like other mma guys eg hoping, moving and exhibiting good cardio?
- operate at a hidden soft level smoothly sticking, snapping joints and ballistic hitting?
- exhibit mystical barely touching & bouncing the opponents around?


As unrealistic as this scenario seems (and lets not spend hours debating this) its worthwhile thinking about what one practices to see how one would deal with an opponent exhibiting superior strength, speed and aggression let alone some of the techniques these high level mma people possess. Maybe just surviving (hopefully) without ending up in hospital is enough.
I suspect many would change their methods and that in itself says a lot. You know some of those techniques you thought were good aren't really that good.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby Quigga on Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:42 am

dspyrido - No idea. I guess there's a good chance the internal guys would get their face smashed in. None of their videos show opponents as aggressive and capable as the one's you've listed. I'm not going to fanboy in either direction. I merely wanted to say that 'my' list has a skill set yours doesn't - and probably vice versa. What intrigues me is if there can't be a combination of both skill sets or whether that's just a pipedream.

Bassler: Why not Kelley Graham or Sam Chin? Do they present themselves differently? Of all the people I've mentioned I'd probably like to see Ryabko and Mizner the most in the ring. Mizner said himself that he was too old and too badly conditioned, his main focus is Buddhism anyway (Yet I don't see how that excludes combat/ring fighting). The same probably applies to Ryabko. I think 30 seconds would be enough to see a meaningful result. 'Ancient warrior art' gets thrown around a lot - I don't think there are any left or they're all dying out, on the verge of extinction. When I get the Kickstarter going, I'll post a link :D

Wayne - I assume you're talking about 'my' list? Note that combative ability wasn't my main focus, just a set of skills.

AJG - What bothers me is: Why can't 'someone' who practices what we would call soft/internal not show superior speed, strength and aggression? What special techniques do you talk about - punches, kicks, throws, dodging/bobbing/weaving, footwork, groundwork, joint locks, jumping actions, escaping, chasing,.....?
I don't want to talk about surviving - the stigma of martial arts being for lower caste or dirty or uncivilized people only still exists. Maybe it doesn't have to forever? There's no point in trying to kill each other in the ring - but maybe participants who join with such an intent have an edge above those who don't - any psychology majors here? :D

Pressure testing is always necessary. This opens the big debate of why do you learn what movement in TMA - conditioning, body mechanics, application, 'spiritual/esoteric' reasons, cultural one's, attempts at deceiving onlookers, weaponized MA now being practiced without weapons,.....?
Yet a jab, hook or straight can fit into each of those categories. A jab can be practiced just as 'internally' as any other movement, IMO.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby Quigga on Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:03 am

suckinlhbf wrote:
uncomfortable explaining

It is hard to explain and comprehend. It involves two different approaches - train from/with outside (外景), and train from/with inside (内景). Both of them go with physical and mental. The feeling from outside (外景) is subtle, and from inside (内景) is intense.


Interesting, thank you. So I guess the deeper in the body you can go, the more intense the feeling is.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:29 am

Yes I was talking about your list
Apart from Kelly Grahame who I have never seen(please show me where I can view him)
The rest I would be more than glad to test their skill set
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby Bhassler on Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:10 pm

Quigga wrote:Bassler: Why not Kelley Graham or Sam Chin? Do they present themselves differently? Of all the people I've mentioned I'd probably like to see Ryabko and Mizner the most in the ring. Mizner said himself that he was too old and too badly conditioned, his main focus is Buddhism anyway (Yet I don't see how that excludes combat/ring fighting). The same probably applies to Ryabko. I think 30 seconds would be enough to see a meaningful result. 'Ancient warrior art' gets thrown around a lot - I don't think there are any left or they're all dying out, on the verge of extinction. When I get the Kickstarter going, I'll post a link :D


Yeah, they just do their thing and seem sincerely interested in sharing with those who want to learn, without talking a bunch of shit, etc. I know some of Sam Chin's guys have fought in tournaments. What they do doesn't do it for me, personally, but I respect the practice.

Ryabko stays on the list because I kind of like Systema and want to see good Systema guys go against dudes from other backgrounds. Might have to find someone younger and more in their prime, though. Mizner and Liang De Hua are full on con artists.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby rojcewiczj on Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:38 pm

Yesterday I went to an open mat training session led by a college wrestling champion. The other people there were either MMA fighters or BJJ people. Coming from a CMA background myself my main focus is how I can best express my own training.
I managed to stop a good few takedown attempts and counter the wrestlers techniques but I was also tense and awkward at times which led to being taken down. The main take away for me was that if I stay relaxed and focus on creating a whole-body hitting force on contact and timed with the opponent movement, my CMA training can work very well, but if I try to just push/pull/squeeze or use any purely muscular force than well trained athletes will not be moved/effected.

My point is that I think Soft beats Hard if "soft" means to stay relaxed and mobilize your energy in order to create powerful hits without distance, hits of force ( Jin ) that can destabilize your opponent. "Hard" would be to try to push or drive your action through your opponent, instead of generating the force "internally" and essentially hitting your opponent through the contact. My experience is that high level wrestlers use a good deal of hitting force without distance but they also mix it with pulling/pushing/driving and general muscular force actions. My personal goal is to continue to move towards purely "internal" actions, meaning to build on the ability to strike powerfully with any point of the body without distance.

I think the general mystery aura around internal martial arts is based on the peculiarity of striking without distance. No distance or short distance striking energy is extremely useful for controlling/destabilizing your opponent but it easily collapses into pushing and pulling. It also implies a different fighting strategy than long distance striking (kickboxing boxing) or pure grappling which is generally mixed with more muscular pulling/pushing/squeezing (judo, BJJ, wrestling).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDbhWW2Yebs

Demonstration style reactions aside, I think the concept of what Mizner/Liang De Hua are teaching is that proper internal training is a way to cultivate the ability to "hit" your opponent from zero distance, which isn't very mysterious when you feel what a wrestlers "blast double leg" feels like. It feels like getting hit, not pushed.
Last edited by rojcewiczj on Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby Quigga on Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:52 pm

Hey suckinlhbf, I had a thought the last 2-3 weeks that inside/outside can also refer to: connection from thumb + index finger to heel and big toe, connection from little finger to outside of foot. Or: inside is from tiger's mouth to inside of lower arms to biceps to arm pits to ribs to front of belly to kua to inside of legs to heel to big toe. Outside is from little finger to shoulder blades to lats to kidneys to ilioscral joints to glutes to outside of legs to heel to small toe. As continuously connected lines :D Also using mind more to set intention to move.

Wayne - just put his name into youtube, you can find ca. 9 year old vids from him there. "Kelley Graham". Mizner said he doesn't accept challenges anymore. So I dunno, try your luck.

Bhassler- why do you think they're con artists? Do they seem to promote unrealistic combat ability? I agree on Systema.

-- We had the early Gracie promoting yogic breath work in combination with his BJJ via his success. I think people who want to help 'restore IMA to their former glory' :D should act like him. I've read stories about yogis running marathons without training running. So maybe there's something to It?
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:25 pm

The trained ability to fight with a relaxed, flexible mind and body (soft), physical bottom heavy stability (rooted), evasively agile footwork, fluidly fast changes of posture and position, coordinated whole body movement, etc, all contribute to optimal speed and power, both defensively and offensively, regardless of one's fighting style or method. 8-)

To assume that the top exponents of any style in previous generations never trained sufficiently enough to successfully face serious opponents with speed, power and skills comparable to modern MMA fighters is laughable. ;D

All fighting methods, traditional or otherwise, are only as good as the efforts of the people training them. Thus, any perceived differences of practical combat efficiency between most traditional martial artists today and current MMA fighters is primarily due to the intensity of serious training, since competitive fighters generally train far more seriously than traditional style hobby practitioners do. Just saying! ::)
Last edited by Doc Stier on Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby Bhassler on Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:33 pm

Quigga wrote:Bhassler- why do you think they're con artists? Do they seem to promote unrealistic combat ability?


That's for starters. There's also the issue of assembling a set of tricks to impress people and then presenting them as a traditional martial art, when they have only a passing resemblance to the actual art in question. Mizner is particular will often say he's doing one thing and direct people's attention there, when in fact he is doing something else entirely.

I will say it's very difficult to understand a thing or determine if it is "extraodinary" if someone doesn't even have a solid baseline for what ordinary is.

Doc Stier wrote:The trained ability to fight with a relaxed, flexible mind and body (soft), physical bottom heavy stability (rooted), evasively agile footwork, fluidly fast changes of posture and position, coordinated whole body movement, etc, all contribute to optimal speed and power, both defensively and offensively, regardless of one's fighting style or method. 8-)

To assume that the top exponents of any style in previous generations never trained sufficiently enough to successfully face serious opponents with speed, power and skills comparable to modern MMA fighters is laughable. ;D

All fighting methods, traditional or otherwise, are only as good as the efforts of the people training them. Thus, any perceived differences of practical combat efficiency between most traditional martial artists today and current MMA fighters is primarily due to the intensity of serious training, since competitive fighters generally train far more seriously than traditional style hobby practitioners do. Just saying! ::)


QFT, I would add that context matters. A sniper may not be the best sport fighter, but he's all around a hell of a lot more dangerous than your average UFC athlete.
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:36 am

Bhassler wrote:I would add that context matters. A sniper may not be the best sport fighter, but he's all around a hell of a lot more dangerous than your average UFC athlete.

Quite so indeed. Regardless of whether you fight soft or hard, it's impossible to defend against "one shot, one kill" from a mile away. :o
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Re: Soft beats hard

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:31 am

What about Wayne Hansen vs Ron Swanson?
I could be wrong.
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