the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Damn you, Asura.

Ben Lo, an interesting , skilled taiji teacher

His method was to teach "through" the form

"People always say to me, 'You always emphasize relaxation. But how do I do it?' I say,
'Do the form.' That's the only way. A lot of people ask me: 'Do you have any special posture that can help me relax?'
I say yes. They ask, 'What?' I say: 'Do the form.'"

"If we had some other kind of posture or form that will help your body relax, we wouldn't be teaching you Tai Chi Ch'uan.
We would be teaching you that.
But so far, we haven't found those kinds of things."

http://www.wuweitaichi.com/articles/Ben ... Basics.htm

It might be more fair to say that his method a hybrid of teaching single postures through the form.

Finny wrote:Damn you, Asura.

I know, right?!

I live a comfortable driving distance from Sam Chin’s I Liq Quan HQ. About a year ago I visited one of his seminars . I touched with several of his students and finally with him. It was a great experience. His skills are very advanced and all of his students are very amicable and easy to work with. They all shared information very openly about their work.

After class was over we all hung out and he spent about 20 minutes speaking with me one on one. He respected that I had family and professional responsibilities that would keep me from becoming an ongoing student. He wished me well and welcomed me to visit anytime.

A study in contrasts, I believe.

just a quick note on MMA being the benchmark..
I mean what else is there really available to compare, it would by and large be anecdotal
a good analogy is science, we tend to believe science, not because it's complete
but because the answers are tested and can be relied upon
the proof is in the pudding
if it's high level it can be demonstrated in the MMA arena

it's the best, and i guess only thing we have to use as a benchmark
to evidence or prove a claim of fighting skill

this is like taking a time hop back to those old discussions
surely anyone with any common sense shouldn't need convincing or to use this kind of narrative to make a point.
never, ever going to wash or support whatever the argument might be.

live and learn bro.

I don't think mma is pointed to because it's the highest level fighting. It's that everyone competing in mma does mma. It's generally true that most who compete in mma have had a base art. Of course, now that there are dedicated mma schools, it is becoming more of a base style. A tjq guy who doesn't practice in and train for an mma contest won't do well in mma. And, if he does, he'll be doing mma.

High level at mma --as in champion of a division-- doesn't mean that person will beat a high level wrestler or boxer, or vice versa. To me, it's like saying that because Usain Bolt is high level at the track, he could beat Michael Phelps in the pool.

Steve James wrote:I don't think mma is pointed to because it's the highest level fighting. It's that everyone competing in mma does mma. It's generally true that most who compete in mma have had a base art. Of course, now that there are dedicated mma schools, it is becoming more of a base style. A tjq guy who doesn't practice in and train for an mma contest won't do well in mma. And, if he does, he'll be doing mma.

High level at mma --as in champion of a division-- doesn't mean that person will beat a high level wrestler or boxer, or vice versa. To me, it's like saying that because Usain Bolt is high level at the track, he could beat Michael Phelps in the pool.

it's rulesets Steve not really styles per se; if it where a chicken and an egg the ruleset would come first..
the ruleset then lends itself to a style of fighting.

in the mixed martial arts ruleset you find all kinds of fighting styles or have done so.
Look at guys like Machida, he trained in a number of arts
there's been all sorts represented.

but sure there are the more common ones like MT and BJJ, anyone could do pretty well with those two and a bit of wrestling thrown into the mix.
But sure that 'base style' you speak of grew out of something - what works according to the ruleset. It's been around long enough to be figured out - more or less.

it's the highest level fighting WITH the WIDEST ruleset available. end of. you can talk about narrower rulesets and they would have higher level in that narrower ruleset. someone focusing just on boxing will excel (vs an MMA guy) in that for what should be obvious reasons. We've saw that clearly with Mcgregor vs Mayweather.

Mayweather would have got destroyed in no time doing MMA with Mcgregor; boxers have tried and failed before.
This is old news.

what you say about the TJQ guy, well it's a silly throwaway statement if he has trained TJQ he'll be doing that too - in an mma ruleset and whatever he may have trained alongside it. Mixed martial art means just that, you may have either forgotten or never actually done it..

As for Dan, he's a cool enough guy when you meet him; having met both him and Sam, and a fair few others. I enjoyed his seminars for what its worth. He's as good a value as anyone else in my book.

The game is about marketing to an extent; you have to really look past the digs to certain arts and not take it personally I think if you do or love that particular art.

When he first came on here with his narrative, I took umbrage. It's easy to do so online with people you've never met.

It's like anything else, the ruleset determines the training. My point was that someone whose starts out training X (karate, tkd, tjq) will have to adapt it to the rules of competition Y (ufc, wwf). That means they will have to start training for Y. It will be like starting a new sport, unless components of X are part of Y's rules. And, it's only because those are precisely what opponent Z trains for.

I don't think anyone who is high level at tjq is automatically able to be high level at any other combat sport. That's a generalization, and where I'd say that Dan Harden is right. I don't expect someone who's really proficient in any tjq style or practice will be proficient in any other sport. If they train in that sport, they're doing that sport.

Sure, Machida "uses" karate. Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, and Dan Henderson "use" wrestling. Royce used bjj; Maurice Smith used muay thai. I have no problem that someone can "mix" tjq into mixed martial art. I just don't think it's suffient (but neither is wing chun).

I totally agree Steve, but MMA is weird though - you can still get to a really high level with a relatively narrow skill set. There are still people who are obvioiusly jiujitsu fighters, or wrestlers or strikers. They do combine everything, but still have a clear preference.

Last night: Chandler vs Olivera headline was a good example.

Chandler does all the stuff American wrestlers do with hardly any adaptation for MMA. 0 effort to pass guard - just punch. But it seems to work for him. He does Wrestling escapes to everything and gets his back taken but explodes out.



In contrast, Olivera is much more rounded. He can strike and wrestle but also clearly favours jiujitsu:

attempts armbar



then triangle



then technical sweep



then shin guard



all in like a second...

while Chandler just spazzes and public chants "U S A"

That fight could have gone either way.

Hey Graham, I agree. I think most mma fighters have specialties, but have to train as generalists. I also think some specialties are more useful. I think we've yet to see an mma champ who's not better at one aspect than another. I.e. A weakness. The wider the toolset, the better the athlete's chances.

Mma didn't start out with generalists. It started as a competition among specialists. I mean modern mma. People have always used everything to fight.

Hey Steve - GSP. He was equally good at everything, however that made him a bit boring to watch

GrahamB wrote:Hey Steve - GSP. He was equally good at everything, however that made him a bit boring to watch

Yeah, GSP is a karate guy, but one could never tell. He doesn't have a weak area. Then again, he also has a beast of a trainer.

not disagreeing with what you wrote Steve,
it's all punching, kicking, wrestling, choking, cranking limbs.. it's been said; "fighting is fighting"
some arts just took that further, in terms of testing within rulesets and evolving themselves from what they grew out of.

As for GSP, his wrestling was off the charts; I was personally told about this by my ex coach who had trained and sparred with him..
A genuine standout experience by the sounds of it. The strongest aspect of his MMA game, according to what I would describe as being an expert witness.