the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Recently I've experienced a great leap forward in my ability to apply whole-body mass through my actions. This leap came from thinking more about what it means that "one part moves, all parts move".
In the past, I generally interpreted this line as moving the body as a whole for any action, where the intention is on the whole body moving together. Lately, I've discovered the need for a "lead" in order for the force of the body to be unified.
Without a lead, the body parts might be moving at the same time, but the force wont be unified on contact, because the effort for movement is not even in the body: on contact, the body will go through stress at points where there is a difference in effort within the movement. Using a reference point, or multiple reference points, where that point/points move to initiate the whole bodies movement creates evenness in the body, in proportion to the continuity between the leading point and the body as a whole. This is like casting a lure, where the string moves essentially simultaneously with the lure although the string is being led by the lure.
Having said all this, the practical question is what point or points should one use to lead? My experience has taught me that the elbows are a very good lead point, because they can connect the movements of the arms with the entire body. Also, its is extremely useful from a tactical view point, to adjust your elbows constantly in responding to or setting up your opponent. When the whole body is led by the elbows, a very quick and precise movement of the elbow carries your entire mass behind it which allows for essentially all upper body based actions.
What are your thoughts on the method of having a lead point to initiate movement in the rest of the body? which point or points do you lead with?

I use the Transverse Abdominal muscles to lead.

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rojcewiczj wrote: What are your thoughts on the method of having a lead point to initiate movement in the rest of the body? which point or points do you lead with?

Some people preaches the (lower) dantian, either externally or internally defined. Others teaches to lead with the fingertips coordinated with the feet (and especially the toes) and leave everything else “empty”.

Working on my tai chi, I’ve experimented with a few ideas over the years, but I have come to the conclusion that, for me personally at least, it’s better to just move everything together while minding balance, centerline, and general structural integrity. The “idea”, or “yi” and conditions/requirements will naturally work together if you don’t force yourself to do something special. If you focus on some body part, you’ll often end up with “trying to do something”, so you are actually spitting your body into “this” and “that”. Always better to learn how to trust your own body, and learn what it wants to do, so it will move and act as efficiently as possible by itself. ...and without your Smart Alec brain to interfere when your own body try to work as it works the best.

Wei Wu Wei... as always. Trying to not interfere the Nature of your own body which is smarter than your brain.

From the bubbling well, of course.

Discover Taiji
Apr 25, 2020


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDxs55cLev0

marvin8 wrote:Discover Taiji
Apr 25, 2020


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDxs55cLev0

Interesting explanation although seems a little convoluted

rojcewiczj wrote: What are your thoughts on the method of having a lead point to initiate movement in the rest of the body?
which point or points do you lead with?

Some of this was talked about in the clip "marvin8" posted

Wouldn't consider it "whole body movement"

Some thoughts

"mind" to initiate movement

No one point leads the body "None"

The body should have a clearly defined center that can exist within or outside of itself,
treated as virtual spherical object.

At the point of contact with another "body" the point of contact can be treated as small sphere or
be considered as the boundary line between two separate bodies forming one spherical body.
Can be physical , virtual, or combination of both.

The one who understands where the center is, able to control it though this understanding,
can issue or receive force at will, can also cause many interesting reactions
often the subject of many threads here.

taiji is said to embody the circle and square.

XY has this one worked out as a basic teaching method.

6 combinations:

Hand & foot
Elbow & knee
Shoulder & hip

Drilled right & it is more than enough to get great power.

Over time the body can move in segments and then combine when needed ie any of the 7 stars can position & then hit decently hit hard from a short range.

The reason I brought up the significance of the elbows in my initial post was to frame the discussion on the level of practical approaches to keeping the body unified. What
I've experienced is that regardless of theories or the ability of someone to move in unison when doing the form, when contacts made, the arms and body stop working together in terms of mass. Instead,
The traps and shoulder muscles start working for power.

If the elbows are treated as part of the body, and moving the elbows results in moving the entire body, then using the arms becomes a way of using the body mass as a whole. Then a simple movement of the arm
can unbalance an opponent. For years, I focused on moving my body and letting the arms passively follow, as this is a typical sort of advice for Taiji or internal styles in general; the results however, have been lacking.

Sometimes I do the form as if somebody heavy is gripping my wrists, and I need to therefore get my whole body behind my arms to move them. I think it's the same thing.

Another aspect to this question is, how much do individual parts (in relation to other parts) move together?

One of the differences created by using various parts of the body as a lead part is the ramifications it has on other parts of the body in terms of its best expression of internal force (or movement in general).

Speaking broadly, a horizontal movement, the elbow/forearm is expressed more clearly with a small (left/right) movement of the centre to a large movement with the arm. Conversely, a large vertical movement of the centre finds a better expression of power with a small movement of the forearm. This way the "cogs" of the body are working in harmony with one another rather than "missing" each other.

The situation changes again when combining horizontal and vertical movements as the ratio between the lead and the contact points need to again adjust.

Arrgggg!! its all very complicated and is probably better not to think about too much.

I dunno. I tend to think that the saying needs to be demonstrated by the one saying it . I.e., when I walk, are all parts moving? If the parts move in sequence, aren't they all moving? But, do all the parts move simultaneously?

How about someone posting a video of "one part moves, all parts move." Um, I mean showing, not explaining.

Steve James wrote:I dunno. I tend to think that the saying needs to be demonstrated by the one saying it . I.e., when I walk, are all parts moving? If the parts move in sequence, aren't they all moving? But, do all the parts move simultaneously?

How about someone posting a video of "one part moves, all parts move." Um, I mean showing, not explaining.

CB demonstrates silk reeling. He is also saying around 4:04 one part moves, no part doesn't move, so I think this is a pretty clear example. He also says similar things - around 3:41 we call this tong bu - synchronized ... elbow, body one unit, upper and lower following, inner and outer follow each other.

Another aspect to this question is, how much do individual parts (in relation to other parts) move together?

The body is stringed together as a whole. The individual parts move as much they need depending on what you do. You need to feel what the body wants and stop thinking about what is correct.

The centre pushes out the periphery.
The internal moves the external.
The legs pushes the arms.
Turning the half of the body backwards makes the other half go forward.
Pushing down to the ground makes your body raise upwards.

Establish your centerline.
Move from the centre of the body and outwards,
and from the bottom up.
Lead the outside from the inside.
Feel a direct, instantaneous connection between foot and hand throughout each and every movement.

do all the parts move simultaneously?

tangential, and translational velocity's are different.

If the axis is not well defined, understood,
relationships of parts within the movement will not
be correct.

This is a great topic. We spend years exploring the 6 harmonies. The key to understanding the elbows is discovered through the ribs. To power the knees from the inside requires a keen appreciation of the ribs.