Killer fast hands in forms

[Bhassler]

I've started this one to talk about a different way of thinking about speed in combat. There's raw velocity: how fast your limbs are moving as a function of distance per unit of time. There's acceleration: a measure of how quickly velocity increases per unit of time. There's distance-to-target: the closest weapon to a given target. There's also the difference between weapons which travel in a linear trajectory vs. those that describe an arc. There's perceptual speed: a measure of the lag between the occurrence of a cue to initiate movement and the actual initiation of that movement. There's timing: coordinating your movement with your opponent's such that you are out of harm's way, you blend seamlessly with his movement, and that your weapons arrive at just the precise correct moment.

All of these things are factors in how fast you are and/or will seem to an opponent in a real fight. All of these also contribute to your collective speed of opportunity: your ability to capitalize on open windows of opportunity so as to make the most of them to your advantage.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 89270d0a05

[Walk the Torque]

This is always an interesting conversation; The comeback to the question "how do you train speed in the hands?" is usually "define which speed you're talking about" and "what is the salient factor to the speed in your style/training.

Firstly, as I understand it there are are two types of speed:
1) speed of the object/weapon (in this case hands) through space
2) speed on the force acting through the object/weapon

In the former there is a subdivision of large movements through space and small movements through space, depending on how you are generating the force acting on/through the weapon. In the type of shocking force used in some type of striking the tendency is to use very small movements over the entire body powered by springy or elastic force, and usually at a closer range. To draw a comparison think of a pneumatic drill; the chisel end of which does not move through space at a great distance but packs a lot of force in a short distance.

Another way to train speedy hands is to work on whipping strikes by loosening the arms and making the torso very stable. Again with small movements in the torso (small muscular contractions) combined with learning how to deliver the force through extremely relaxed arms we can bring about great speed which is also unpredictable.

The springy/rebound/elastic power generation can launch the limbs out at crazy fast speeds over distance or within a short space. To do this though usually requires at least a little time to slowdown the movements to learn how to gain the function of the springy quality of the body and learn how to make small sequential movements.

2 Cents done.
Konn

Good post. For sure there are different striking methods but discussion on how to do those different methods quickly seems thin on the ground.

For example, breathing becomes important. If people are exhaling on each strike and strikes are happening fast then we're talking about multiple exhales in a short amount of time while limbs are moving at speed. This is why I mentioned anaerobic conditioning. Problem is, the exhales happen much quicker than the inhales, meaning you have better have a good aerobic base (increased lung capacity) to begin with in order to really train this properly. And yet, when do we hear about using our arts to build an aerobic base let alone anaerobic?

To move the discussion even a step beyond that, we obviously have to move the techniques beyond breath at a certain point -- they are no longer individually timed to exhales. Multiple techniques with one breath will place an even greater demand on the cardio requirements.

One can get the same result by doing:

- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook,
- right uppercut,
- left uppercut,
- right overhand,
- left overhand,

8 punches combo overt and over.

Here is a praying mantis 8 strikes combo.

The advantage of both training is you can combine the application training and your basic training into one - kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

I did just enough mantis to know I'd never be good at it. What's the breathing like when training fast mantis hands?

[/quote]

Good post. For sure there are different striking methods but discussion on how to do those different methods quickly seems thin on the ground. [/quote]

Yeah maybe you're right; or maybe because it is that simple, train to get your shen faq in order and the speed will naturally come. For the more analytical amongst us though, there are a lot of little things that can be added to increase hand speed. One of which is definitely the initiating "circle" or arc of the hand before in shoots out; whether on a vertical or horizontal plane (or combination of both). Being a Tao-phile I like to think of it as the little dot of Yin in the Yang of the strike.

take an overhand right or cross for instance; a little inward circle to start off can be woven into a slight torso movement to the left and in so doing store a little momentum and spring with which to launch the hand. It good at contact also to clear a path by pulling the op's arm out of the way, as is demonstrated in the second half of this tai chi instructional clip https://youtu.be/gWoBNFjeUwE

Konn

[Formosa Neijia]

What's the breathing like when training fast mantis hands?

The long fist has a breathing method called 分段呼吸法 (section breathing) that divide you inhale and exhale into maximum of 8 equal parts. That 8 moves combo includes 3 techniques. Each technique require 1 monkey step forward hopping and 1 complete inhale and exhale.

Technique 1 (guide opponent's right arm to jam his own left arm):

1. right hand on right wrist - exhale 1/3.
2. left hand on right elbow - exhale 1/3.
3. right palm chop to the right side head - exhale 1/3.

Technique 2 (guide opponent's left arm to jam his own right arm):

1. left hand on left wrist - exhale 1/2.
2. right palm chop to the left side head - exhale 1/2.

Technique 3 (guide opponent's right arm to jam his own left arm again):

1. right hand pull right arm - exhale 1/3.
2. left hand pull right arm - exhale 1/3.
3. right back hand hit the face - exhale 1/3.

You inhale at the end of each technique and before start your next technique.

YES! Thanks you!! Now we're getting somewhere. 分段呼吸法 fenduan huxi fa -- segmented breathing method. So one inhale and 2-3 exhales. This breathing pattern is used in iron vest, as well, and probably other qigong methods. But we finally are able to discuss it's usage in fighting. I'm finding I'm doing this breathing when training fast material because you can't fully exhale let alone inhale in between strikes. And again, if you want full power especially on that last technique, you need a bigger gas tank i.e. greater lung capacity.

[johnwang]

when training fast material because you can't fully exhale let alone inhale in between strikes.

I don't understand why "1 step 3 punches" is not commonly trained in many CMA systems. In sparring, it's important to know how much air that one still has left in his lung.

This is a general CMA issue. If one always trains slow, how can he be able to understand the proper breathing method?

[phil b]

I don't understand why "1 step 3 punches" is not commonly trained in many CMA systems.

One step 3, 5, 9 punches/strikes is found in arts like Southern Mantis and Wing Chun, and in my experience they are an important part of basic training. However, some schools appear to not understand the purpose or function of this training.

[Formosa Neijia]

I don't understand why "1 step 3 punches" is not commonly trained in many CMA systems.

One step 3, 5, 9 punches/strikes is found in arts like Southern Mantis and Wing Chun, and in my experience they are an important part of basic training. However, some schools appear to not understand the purpose or function of this training.

Yes those of us that have sullied ourselves with "inferior" arts like southern shaolin have such things in our arsenal but these are virtually unknown in the internals.

[Doc Stier]

In my experience, maximum physical speed is the product of optimal relaxation and flexibility in all movements, supported by correct structural alignment and the stability of a solid root.

[origami_itto]

Purely demo-fu.

I assume you will call this kind of training as demo-fu. I guess I have been doing demo-fu all my lives.

There is no slow speed training in the SC system. Even the beginners have to train in regular speed.

your students are compliant.

Of course my opponent is compliant. It's training.

Again I have nothing but respect for you, your skill, and your dedication to your art and I'm sure your worst student could tear through me like a piece of tissue paper.

I'm a little confused by "regular speed" though. Is it "regular speed" for one person to remain motionless while the other performs a series of techniques? For the throws I think there is a lot of merit in essentially using the other person as a sandbag, no argument there. I guess you can't really slow down gravity, though I do like training to the edge of the point where gravity takes over and you can do that slowly with some throws.

Where I really start to question things is when you say "to respond to my opponent's jab and cross with speed. I feel I was still in my 30. " and then post that gif of your student standing motionless with his arm out while you do five movements. I mean, that's not an "opponent" by any stretch of the definition, that's a human sandbag. There may be some merit to the exercise at some level, but is what's displayed in the clip really "training"? Is that how you actually "train" boxing skills? Has the resultant conditioning of these training hypotheses been tested against a striking opponent who is actually trying not to get thrown? Those are the clips I'd like to see.

[marvin8]

If you want to train "to respond to my opponent's jab and cross with speed," then shouldn't your student/feeder throw jabs and crosses (e.g., jab-jab-cross)?

If my student uses jab-jab-cross for head lock training, since the 1st jab is real and the 2nd jab is fake, I will move in during his 1st real jab, I will not wait for his 2nd fake jab. My right arm will guide his left arm away from his head to prevent his left cross.

You have been giving explanations without answering the question. Please answer.

If you are training to respond to a jab-cross by hitting the jab-cross with your hooks, then which method is more useful 1 or 2?

1. feeder steps and throws jab-cross
2. feeder extends/freezes his arms and steps

Feeder throwing jab-cross-hook in training. Note that feeder retracts his punches. Defender parries the jab, not try to hit jab with hook (your method):

[johnwang]

You have been giving explanations without answering the question. Please answer.

If you are training to respond to a jab-cross by hitting the jab-cross with your hooks, then which method is more useful 1 or 2?

1. feeder steps and throws jab-cross
2. feeder extends/freezes his arms and steps

Of course 1 is better than 2.

In CSC, we don't pull punch back. We try to grab/pull/wrap/... our opponent's punching arm.

Feeder throwing jab-cross-hook in training. Note that feeder retracts his punches. Defender parries the jab, not try to hit jab with hook (your method):

This is what I don't want my students to do. I have mentioned my concern in RSF many times on this. A throws a punch. B uses arms to guard his head. This gives A all the space that he needs. It's to conservative approach in my opinion.

A throws jab/cross. B throws double hooks is better solution. At the end f this clip, you can see that his opponent's double hooks force him to cover his head.

Instead of using my arms to cover my own head, I want to use my double hooks to force my opponent (who throws jab/cross at me) to cover his own head.

This can be another interested discussion. Allow me to borrow your clip to start another discussion thread.

[johnwang]

"train" boxing skills?

We don't train boxing skill in my class.

tested against a striking opponent who is actually trying not to get thrown? Those are the clips I'd like to see.

You are talking about Sanda or MMA match.

Even in fist flying environment, the clinch can still be established. To move in and jam your opponent's arm is the key.

[origami_itto]

"train" boxing skills?

We don't train boxing skill in my class.

Ah well there's the root of my misunderstanding, when I saw you ostensibly training against a striker I thought you were approaching the subject.

tested against a striking opponent who is actually trying not to get thrown? Those are the clips I'd like to see.

You are talking about Sanda or MMA match.

Even in fist flying environment, the clinch can still be established. To move in and jam your opponent's arm is the key.

Sure a sanda match or whatever sort of situation you're training jab and cross defense for. Even a training setup, just somebody who is actively trying to hit you, or at least responding realistically to the technique you're pulling off. The walking dead feeder technique has limited returns in my opinion.

And hey, I know that guy in the black!

We met and played push hands at a little shindig Dave Pickens put together just before my knee surgery. Solid skills and very polite. Forget his name but he runs the Austin Combat Shuai Jiao page on facebook. Good guy.

[johnwang]

Ah well there's the root of my misunderstanding, when I saw you ostensibly training against a striker I thought you were approaching the subject.

In my class, we don't use the boxing method (I have 0 boxing training). We only use the SC method - to use double circles to seal the space in front of us (similar to the reverse of the Taiji cloud hands). The original idea came from the SC guard. It has been used by SC guys. It may not have been used by strikers yet.

I strongly believe if

- I throw double hooks in front of me, it will be difficult for my opponent's jab and cross to come in (used for defense only).
- my opponent throws jab and cross at me, my double hooks can knock both of his arms down (used for counter).

just somebody who is actively trying to hit you, or at least responding realistically to the technique you're pulling off.

Another clip to use hook to counter jab. If my hook punch does not have enough speed, my opponent's jab may hit on my face.

Please notice that my opponent can borrow my force, spin his arm, and hook punch to my head. If I reverse my counter-clockwise hook into a clockwise arm wrap, his hook will fall into my trap.

[windwalker]

I don't understand why "1 step 3 punches" is not commonly trained in many CMA systems. In sparring, it's important to know how much air that one still has left in his lung.

This is a general CMA issue. If one always trains slow, how can he be able to understand the proper breathing method?

Some systems emphasize foot work over number of hands, or hand speed,
not having to parry, intercepting over blocking or wrapping.

"slow" training part of conditioning to understand how to coordinate the mind/body through the transitions of movement.
Its not slow in use.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAIR1Fp2iM

[BruceP]

Memories …

Yup
...of all the marvin8s of the world who never bought a round
but always knew what everybody else was doin' with the videos he found