Killer fast hands in forms

[Formosa Neijia]

Some systems emphasize foot work over number of hands, or hand speed,
not having to parry, intercepting over blocking or wrapping.
"slow" training part of conditioning to understand how to coordinate the mind/body through the transitions of movement.
Its not slow in use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAIR1Fp2iM

Yes and those systems are good at getting knocked out because the foundation skills aren't taught any more. You can't expect just stepping off centerline to save you. Hand and foot speed (and effective parrying) have to be trained and not after 10 years of doing forms either. It either gets trained at the beginning like in the old days and you get better at it or it just gets ignored completely which is what happens the majority of the time in IMA.
And bagua isn't even the best at it. Kali arts like PTK have you moving offline from the beginning. You move fast and get faster, giving a heck of a workout.
It should be a reproducable technology like below, not shrouded in myth and theory.


One of biggest problems i see in IMA is being slow and soft is the only way and it ruins your fight potential. Being fast to some extent is a skill that can be taught but you have to learn to move fast because being fast is valued. Tim Waid and his people could literally complete two strikes with the stick or sword by the time I had completed one. Literally twice as fast. The foot work was trained AT SPEED and built from there. They could outflank you before you knew what was happening.

[windwalker]

Yes and those systems are good at getting knocked out because the foundation skills aren't taught any more. You can't expect just stepping off centerline to save you.

Interesting.

Has that been your experience.

Getting knocked out using the things you’ve trained in ?


The teacher has students who compete regularly in full contact venues in Singapore.
Using Theories, methods he advocates, modified to fit in the venues they compete in.

Boxing, BJJ, TKD, all very distinctive in use with those using them managing to use them in recognizable form in different venues.

It would seem that CMA practitioners for the most part cannot do the same.
“For the most part “

Tibetan white crane, also advocates bypassing blocking, and parrying movements. Foot work, timing, distance and range are key. Due to its foot work and long arm very distinctive in use and function.
Form follows function, function follows from

The question asked why do some Chinese martial arts do not use multiple strikes with one step.
The short answer is their methodologies, strategies are different.

How effective they are dependent on the practitioner

[windwalker]

Being fast to some extent is a skill that can be taught but you have to learn to move fast because being fast is valued.

Slow training done to help people understand how to think fast,
develop an awareness and usage of transitions in movement in themselves and those they may encounter.

Transitions, sometimes referred to as gap

Gaps in movement

[Formosa Neijia]

Yes and those systems are good at getting knocked out because the foundation skills aren't taught any more. You can't expect just stepping off centerline to save you.

Interesting.

Has that been your experience.

Getting knocked out using the things you’ve trained in ?

No because I did all sorts of things outside of class on my own. The degree to which a student of IMA these days is expected to figure things out for himself when other arts just make it a part of their daily training has baffled me for decades.
How to get fast with the stick? Here's one way. Notice that transitions are already part of the training.

Boxing, BJJ, TKD, all very distinctive in use with those using them managing to use them in recognizable form in different venues.

It would seem that CMA practitioners for the most part cannot do the same.
“For the most part “

Tibetan white crane, also advocates bypassing blocking, and parrying movements. Foot work, timing, distance and range are key. Due to its foot work and long arm very distinctive in use and function.
Form follows function, function follows from

The question asked why do some Chinese martial arts do not use multiple strikes with one step.
The short answer is their methodologies, strategies are different.

The relationship between form and function in IMA is largely broken. Even if people are taught applications they are rarely taught the application's relationship to the form and application is rare. Supplementary training methods to get the student up to fighting is rarer still these days.

The PTK guys also largely dismiss blocking because they flank and strike so quickly that counterattacks protect the body. That will be a tall order for IMAs that teach moving slowly for years.

[johnwang]

Some systems emphasize foot work over number of hands, or hand speed,

In sparring, 1 step 1 punch (with full power generation) just doesn't happen that often.

For the sake of discussion, here is an example.

- You throw a jab, your opponent blocks it.
- You borrow his blocking force, change your jab into a hook.
- You use your hook to pull down his arm, and punch with an uppercut.

Since 3 punches like this can happen so quickly that you may not have time to use your footwork, you just have to finish all 3 moves with 1 step. You don't have chance to use your footwork here.

[windwalker]

That will be a tall order for IMAs that teach moving slowly for years.

Something often repeated, seems to be a focal point for some.


Slow movement allows for fast movement,



He teaches IMA.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozvH8J_poxk

[johnwang]

I did all sorts of things outside of class on my own.

When I told my brother in law that I was interested in fighting (I was 11), he told me to drill "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years.

IMO, this basic training is missing in most IMA systems.

[windwalker]

Some systems emphasize foot work over number of hands, or hand speed,

In sparring, 1 step 1 punch (with full power generation) just doesn't happen that often.

For the sake of discussion, here is an example.

- You throw a jab, your opponent blocks it.
- You borrow his blocking force, change your jab into a hook.
- You use your hook to pull down his arm, and punch with an uppercut.

Since 3 punches like this can happen so quickly that you may not have time to use your footwork, you just have to finish all 3 moves with 1 step. You don't have chance to use your footwork here.

Hasn't been my experience using Tibetan White Crane "TWC"


Due to the structure, method of the style it's not really possible to use the long arm in that way...If one does "with out foot work"
tends to negate the advantages of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT8yjbX1ZaY


Ron Dong's class, a student of Shifu Gorge Long.

Foot work, key to making the style functional.
If one looks, foot work practice patterns can be seen on the floor.

[Formosa Neijia]

Since 3 punches like this can happen so quickly that you may not have time to use your footwork, you just have to finish all 3 moves with 1 step. You don't have chance to use your footwork here.

Hasn't been my experience using Tibetan White Crane. "TWC"
Due to the structure, method of the style it's not really possible to use the long arm in that way...If one does "with out foot work"
tends to negate the advantages of it.

This shows a big weakness IMO: never assume you'll have infinite space to move around and perform your shenfa and footwork. Training speed in multiple short techniques with limited footwork is vital if your goal is to survive an assault.

I'm the short haired white guy getting assaulted by my great Filipino classmates.
As part of my initiation into the Libre Knife Fighting Guild I did the blender, :30 sparring sessions in a room the size of an elevator. It's designed to simulate bathrooms, stairwells, of course elevators, etc. where assailants corner you and then kill you. The idea is you have to fight your way out of it and speed and power is essential but relying on footwork can get you killed. You won't always have room to maneuver. They went easy on me at first because it was my first time but they ramped up the speed as we went along.
You can't always step your way out of danger.

[johnwang]

never assume you'll have infinite space to move around and perform your shenfa and footwork.

Agree with you 100% there.

This is why one should train:

- 1 step 3 punches.
- 2 steps 3 punches.
- 1 steps 1 punches.
- 2 steps 1 punch.
- 3 steps 1 punch.
- ...

to cover all distances.

[windwalker]

This shows a big weakness IMO: never assume you'll have infinite space to move around and perform your shenfa and footwork.
Training speed in multiple short techniques with limited footwork is vital if your goal is to survive an assault.

All may have an "opinion"

Your "opinion" hasn't been my experience.

Never assume anything, not a problem in my younger days using the TWC against all types of encounters, boxers, TKD, ect
in different settings.

note: TWC not the focus of my present training.

Styles, methods are designed around a certain premise.
Whether they work or not dependent on the person using them..

At some point, what ever one does,
they become the method.

Whether it's really functional or not dependent on the focus of "their" training.
A lot of the conversation seems to revolve around what others do versus what they themselves practice.

Another style noted for foot work.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDva0RFcDUs&t=92s

[windwalker]

The idea is you have to fight your way out of it and speed and power is essential but relying on footwork can get you killed. You won't always have room to maneuver. They went easy on me at first because it was my first time but they ramped up the speed as we went along.
You can't always step your way out of danger.

IMO, looking at the clip..plenty of room to move, if you know how to move and
practice to do so....As mentioned "long arm" coupled
the foot work has some advantages even in confined space.

Its not just the foot work,
it's the way the style is structured and used.

There are two aspects to it, one called the ape, the other crane.
using the "ape" aspect the movements and stepping were done a little differently.
Still using the foot work but not much movement.

think of being in the center of a circle versus on the outside.

[johnwang]

Styles, methods are designed around a certain premise.

This is why I try not to let any "style" to set restriction on me.

For example, Taiji principle - to use 4 oz to deal with 1000 lb. If I have 1000 lb, why not just use it?

[windwalker]

never assume you'll have infinite space to move around and perform your shenfa and footwork.

Agree with you 100% there.

This is why one should train:

- 1 step 3 punches.
- 2 steps 3 punches.
- 1 steps 1 punches.
- 2 steps 1 punch.
- 3 steps 1 punch.
- ...

to cover all distances.

we trained from the same distance to close the gap.

3 steps 3 hands
2 steps 2 hands

Eventually getting to the point where the distance was covered in

one step one hand.

Should mention the style is based on circular foot work with a circular hands.

[johnwang]

Should mention the style is based on circular foot work with a circular hands.

The circular footwork is also the basic building block for my training. If I can line up my back foot with my opponent's both feet, his back hand cannot punch me.

For some unknown reason, strategy discussion (my favor subject) is not popular in RSF. Does anybody know why?