Killer fast hands in forms

[johnwang]

being somewhere in my 60's I find strength and speed are vitally important.

My teacher told me that I would like the Taiji slow movement when I get older. Being in my 70's I still don't like to move slow.

When I can do

- left hook,
- right hook,
- left arm wrap,
- right head lock,
- left leg step in,
- right leg cut,

to respond to my opponent's jab and cross with speed. I feel I was still in my 30.

[Formosa Neijia]

Asking around about this in places related to xingyi shows that nearly no one knows how this process is supposed to happen. Most of it falls along the lines of "move slowly and one day you'll get it" and that isn't going to cut it IMO.

One glaring omission I see is that lack of insight that slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibers are involved. Slow training uses slow twitch fibers and at a really low intensity at that. Jogging, etc. uses slow twitch much more effectively. But fast training uses fast twitch, which slow training doesn't even touch. So the idea that different fibers are involved in the training seems entirely absent. If fast twitch aren't trained then they won't be efficient in fighting but this seems unknown. When you try to move fast, you'll find it isn't the same animal for that reason.

Second, slow training doesn't often even build aerobic endurance let alone anaerobic (and having an aerobic base before anaerobic is crucial, it's called work capacity) but fast training places harsh demands on anaerobic conditioning. Again, I don't see any evidence at all that this is even acknowledged let alone people having a pathway to build it. Just standing in santishi and doing the elements/animals like Yang style taiji ain't gonna cut it and yet from the comments I've seen, that's what people expect to work. "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" is a cliché to some extent.

I keep getting the response that fast training "makes you tense" but I suspect that that is simply the body's natural response to developing the fast twitch fibers that went neglected by years of lao-ren-jia-zi (old man frame). Going faster means training those fast-twitch fibers for the first time in years or decades, leading to some residual muscle tension as students go through the progression but most people seem to take it as "now I'm not internal" and regress to slow training rather than learning to relax at speed.

[phil b]

Back in the days when I trained with James McNeil Sifu, we did Splashing Hands at the end of the day. It was pretty hard to remain tense after training all day, and it did help. However, the most valuable advice I ever got from a teacher was to train the forms and techniques only as fast as I could see the application. In the beginning that's pretty slow, but over time you get quicker without losing integrity of movement or intent.

I've yet to meet a really good teacher that doesn't value both fast and slow training. IMO, the slow/super slow training has become dominant amongst some because there's nothing like telling a student it will take 20 years to attain any skill, keeps the rice bowl full.

[Bob]

One way to move in that direction (and there may be other ways) is to employ weighted training (not to be read as weight training) - very light wrist weights, heavier weapons etc. etc.)

For example the use of what we called a "horse cutter" dao to help with sword and regular dao practice - light brick hand training - ring training slow da qiang training - weighted training is not about using weight for strength and muscularity - not a definitive authoritative formula on my part but simply just observational and practice experience over the years

[johnwang]

You can use jab-jab-cross to train fast hand.

- You let your opponent to block your 1st jab.
- When you throw your 2nd jab, the moment your opponent tries to block it, you pull it back, and
- Punch out your cross.

You lead your opponent to block into the thin air. This is the CMA cheating strategy 101.

[BruceP]

You can use jab-jab-cross to train fast hand.

- You let your opponent to block your 1st jab.
- When you throw your 2nd jab, the moment your opponent tries to block it, you pull it back, and
- Punch out your cross.

You lead your opponent to block into the thin air. This is the CMA cheating strategy 101.

I used to make my (left) jab look like a hook before throwing it so the opp would guard and plant his weight long enough that I could step straight in with the jab and follow with the cross. It's an easy, fast touch-and-go combo.

This was my first tuffman competition, 40 years ago - just before my 18th birthday:

[Bhassler]

This was my first tuffman competition, 40 years ago - just before my 18th birthday:

What are you doing sitting outside the ring? (kidding)

[Formosa Neijia]

I've yet to meet a really good teacher that doesn't value both fast and slow training. IMO, the slow/super slow training has become dominant amongst some because there's nothing like telling a student it will take 20 years to attain any skill, keeps the rice bowl full.

Yeah I think this is a key point and surprisingly (or not) it has now been internalized by students. Rather than looking for a clearer path forward, most have bought into the rhetoric and assume the super-slow path is the real "internal" without asking serious questions about it.

I think there a few reasons why people like Dr. Fish recommend the pigua/tongbei material:
1. the basics sling the blood into the hands, pulling open the upper body tissues.
2. relaxation is there but speed is essential, the basics don't work done slow. So speed is present from the beginning
3. they aren't saddled with overbearing theory about being "internal" so the practice is allowed to shine on its own



I can definitely see how stuff like this can open you up like a can opener and help with speed

[Bob]

Small sample of the weighted rings used in training although I used these primarily in bagua training both stationary and moving:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8Uw93S5Gk



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOntz1IFCBo



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPRBwj_NkY0

[phil b]

I think there a few reasons why people like Dr. Fish recommend the pigua/tongbei material:
1. the basics sling the blood into the hands, pulling open the upper body tissues.
2. relaxation is there but speed is essential, the basics don't work done slow. So speed is present from the beginning
3. they aren't saddled with overbearing theory about being "internal" so the practice is allowed to shine on its own

I can definitely see how stuff like this can open you up like a can opener and help with speed

The Hung Gar I learned had a specific warm up that focused on softening and opening the body. There are some exercises that sling the blood, and they are also practiced after various conditioning exercises, too.

When our kung fu uncle visited from HK, he spent a lot of time stressing relaxation. He focused heavily on basic punching mechanics, and in particular, speed.

I know you have done some SPM. The fic sau exercises serve a similar function.

[johnwang]

I can definitely see how stuff like this can open you up like a can opener and help with speed

One can get the same result by doing:

- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook,
- right uppercut,
- left uppercut,
- right overhand,
- left overhand,

8 punches combo overt and over.

Here is a praying mantis 8 strikes combo.

The advantage of both training is you can combine the application training and your basic training into one - kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

[marvin8]

You can use jab-jab-cross to train fast hand.

- You let your opponent to block your 1st jab.
- When you throw your 2nd jab, the moment your opponent tries to block it, you pull it back, and
- Punch out your cross.

You lead your opponent to block into the thin air. This is the CMA cheating strategy 101.

https://i.postimg.cc/tCvMvS1C/my-jab-jab-cross-1.gif

Right, I brought this up to you before. In a normal punch, one "pulls back" or retracts their punch. It's not "CMA cheating," but universal. Yet in your demos/gifs (e.g., rhino guard) where you block and wrap your feeder's/student's arm, your feeders do not retract their punches. Your students/feeders leave their arms frozen for you to "block, arm wrap, step and throw."

Computer Science 101: If your opponent pulls back/retracts their punch and your technique relies on them to freeze their punch (A), then everything after that (B) may be ineffective and open you up to counters. IOW, you and your students may be training to get KOd by "your cross."

Can you post demos where your students "pull back/retract their punches," as in your last example? Here your student does not throw punches, but extends/freezes his arms and steps:

[johnwang]

Can you post demos where your students "pull back/retract their punches," as in your last example? Here your student does not throw punches, but extends/freezes his arms and steps:

When you throw a punch and then pull your punch back, if your opponent moves in and try to wrap your upper arm, as long as your opponent can move in faster than you can pull your punching arm back, he can still wrap the upper arm of your punching arm.

Your punch pulling may control the distance, your opponent's forward footwork also control the distance. The back left leg forward stepping can cover more distance than the arm pulling back can.

In the following slow speed clip. you can see the left arm is trying to wrap on opponent's right upper-arm with forward footwork.

[Walk the Torque]

This is always an interesting conversation; The comeback to the question "how do you train speed in the hands?" is usually "define which speed you're talking about" and "what is the salient factor to the speed in your style/training.

Firstly, as I understand it there are are two types of speed:
1) speed of the object/weapon (in this case hands) through space
2) speed on the force acting through the object/weapon

In the former there is a subdivision of large movements through space and small movements through space, depending on how you are generating the force acting on/through the weapon. In the type of shocking force used in some type of striking the tendency is to use very small movements over the entire body powered by springy or elastic force, and usually at a closer range. To draw a comparison think of a pneumatic drill; the chisel end of which does not move through space at a great distance but packs a lot of force in a short distance.

Another way to train speedy hands is to work on whipping strikes by loosening the arms and making the torso very stable. Again with small movements in the torso (small muscular contractions) combined with learning how to deliver the force through extremely relaxed arms we can bring about great speed which is also unpredictable.

The springy/rebound/elastic power generation can launch the limbs out at crazy fast speeds over distance or within a short space. To do this though usually requires at least a little time to slowdown the movements to learn how to gain the function of the springy quality of the body and learn how to make small sequential movements.

2 Cents done.
Konn

[johnwang]

I believe the speed should not be trained solo. Your speed training should try to deal with your opponent's movement. When your opponent throws a jab at you, if your hook punch can make contact on his arm, you can press his arm down, and jump in at the same time. If your opponent pulls back his punch and your hook punch can't make contact on his arm, you won't step in.

Here is an interested speed test.

- Your forearm touch on your opponent's forearm (as if you just block your opponent's punch).
- Your opponent tries to pull his arm back.
- You try to touch his shoulder.

Can you touch his shoulder with your forward footwork while your opponent pulls his punch back?