Killer fast hands in forms

[marvin8]

Can you post demos where your students "pull back/retract their punches," as in your last example? Here your student does not throw punches, but extends/freezes his arms and steps:

When you throw a punch and then pull your punch back, if your opponent moves in and try to wrap your upper arm, as long as your opponent can move in faster than you can pull your punching arm back, he can still wrap the upper arm of your punching arm.

However, you demo with your students freezing their arms in the air. If you want to demo blocking and arm wrapping punches, why not throw punches? Why not demo your:

When I can do

- left hook,
- right hook,
- left arm wrap,
- right head lock,
- left leg step in,
- right leg cut,

with your...?

You can use jab-jab-cross to train fast hand.

- You let your opponent to block your 1st jab.
- When you throw your 2nd jab, the moment your opponent tries to block it, you pull it back, and
- Punch out your cross.

You lead your opponent to block into the thin air. This is the CMA cheating strategy 101.

[johnwang]

you demo with your students freezing their arms in the air.

As I have said, if my left hook cannot hit on my opponent's right jab, I won't move in. As long as the contact is made, I'll move in. If my left hand can reach to his right shoulder, it doesn't matter whether he pulls back his right punching arm or not.

If I can move in so close that I can kiss my opponent, whether he pulls his punching arm back or not won't make any difference. I will still get him a head lock. So I don't understand why you are so concern about the punching arm pulling.

My both hands will pass my opponent's head and shoulders.

[marvin8]

you demo with your students freezing their arms in the air.

As I have said, if my left hook cannot hit on my opponent's right jab, I won't move in. As long as the contact is made, I'll move in. If my left hand can reach to his right shoulder, it doesn't matter whether he pulls back his right punching arm or not.

If I can move in so close that I can kiss my opponent, whether he pulls his punching arm back or not won't make any difference. I will still get him a head lock. So I don't understand why you are so concern about the punching arm pulling. ...

I don't understand your reply. You quoted part of a sentence. Can you answer the questions I asked?

Here your student does not throw punches, but extends/freezes his arms and steps...

However, you demo with your students freezing their arms in the air. If you want to demo blocking and arm wrapping punches, why not throw punches? Why not demo
your (hitting arms, arm wrapping, etc)...with your jab-jab-cross method?

[Formosa Neijia]

This is always an interesting conversation; The comeback to the question "how do you train speed in the hands?" is usually "define which speed you're talking about" and "what is the salient factor to the speed in your style/training.

Firstly, as I understand it there are are two types of speed:
1) speed of the object/weapon (in this case hands) through space
2) speed on the force acting through the object/weapon

In the former there is a subdivision of large movements through space and small movements through space, depending on how you are generating the force acting on/through the weapon. In the type of shocking force used in some type of striking the tendency is to use very small movements over the entire body powered by springy or elastic force, and usually at a closer range. To draw a comparison think of a pneumatic drill; the chisel end of which does not move through space at a great distance but packs a lot of force in a short distance.

Another way to train speedy hands is to work on whipping strikes by loosening the arms and making the torso very stable. Again with small movements in the torso (small muscular contractions) combined with learning how to deliver the force through extremely relaxed arms we can bring about great speed which is also unpredictable.

The springy/rebound/elastic power generation can launch the limbs out at crazy fast speeds over distance or within a short space. To do this though usually requires at least a little time to slowdown the movements to learn how to gain the function of the springy quality of the body and learn how to make small sequential movements.

2 Cents done.
Konn

Good post. For sure there are different striking methods but discussion on how to do those different methods quickly seems thin on the ground.

For example, breathing becomes important. If people are exhaling on each strike and strikes are happening fast then we're talking about multiple exhales in a short amount of time while limbs are moving at speed. This is why I mentioned anaerobic conditioning. Problem is, the exhales happen much quicker than the inhales, meaning you have better have a good aerobic base (increased lung capacity) to begin with in order to really train this properly. And yet, when do we hear about using our arts to build an aerobic base let alone anaerobic?

To move the discussion even a step beyond that, we obviously have to move the techniques beyond breath at a certain point -- they are no longer individually timed to exhales. Multiple techniques with one breath will place an even greater demand on the cardio requirements.

One can get the same result by doing:

- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook,
- right uppercut,
- left uppercut,
- right overhand,
- left overhand,

8 punches combo overt and over.

Here is a praying mantis 8 strikes combo.

The advantage of both training is you can combine the application training and your basic training into one - kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

I did just enough mantis to know I'd never be good at it. What's the breathing like when training fast mantis hands?

[johnwang]

I don't understand your reply. You quoted part of a sentence. Can you answer the questions I asked?

It was training. It was not fighting. After one has drilled a technique over 60 times, it's hard to be alert on each and every punch that he throws.

[johnwang]

What's the breathing like when training fast mantis hands?

The long fist has a breathing method called 分段呼吸法 (section breathing) that divide you inhale and exhale into maximum of 8 equal parts. That 8 moves combo includes 3 techniques. Each technique require 1 monkey step forward hopping and 1 complete inhale and exhale.

Technique 1 (guide opponent's right arm to jam his own left arm):

1. right hand on right wrist - exhale 1/3.
2. left hand on right elbow - exhale 1/3.
3. right palm chop to the right side head - exhale 1/3.

Technique 2 (guide opponent's left arm to jam his own right arm):

1. left hand on left wrist - exhale 1/2.
2. right palm chop to the left side head - exhale 1/2.

Technique 3 (guide opponent's right arm to jam his own left arm again):

1. right hand pull right arm - exhale 1/3.
2. left hand pull right arm - exhale 1/3.
3. right back hand hit the face - exhale 1/3.

You inhale at the end of each technique and before start your next technique.

[marvin8]

I don't understand your reply. You quoted part of a sentence. Can you answer the questions I asked?

It was training. It was not fighting. After one has drilled a technique over 60 times, it's hard to be alert on each and every punch that he throws.

Your jab-jab-cross is training too, not fighting. I am still not understanding. You can drill hitting hands/arm wrapping 60 times with your student not throwing punches and extending/freezing his arms while stepping. Or, your student/feeder can use the jab-jab-cross method, more realistic punches. How does your reply answer...?

Here your student does not throw punches, but extends/freezes his arms and steps...

However, you demo with your students freezing their arms in the air. If you want to demo blocking and arm wrapping punches, why not throw punches? Why not demo
your (hitting arms, arm wrapping, etc)...with your jab-jab-cross method?

[johnwang]

Your jab-jab-cross is training too, not fighting. I am still not understanding. You can drill hitting hands/arm wrapping 60 times with your student not throwing punches and extending/freezing his arms while stepping. Or, your student/feeder can use the jab-jab-cross method, more realistic punches. How does your reply answer...?

Do you agree that to pull back your hand empty is a bad idea "手不空回"?

In China, when a theft gets into a house, even if he could not find any money or valuable, he would at least take something, it would be a bad luck if a theft got out of a house with empty hand.

I taught my student "never pull his hand back empty." When he throws a jab, I use hook to block it. He can borrow my force, rotate his arm, and change his jab into a hook. That's why I change my hook into arm wrap to meet his hook half way. It may look like he did not pull his punch back.

In the following clip, when my student block my jab, I don't pull my punch back. I borrow his blocking force, change my jab into a hook. This is the CMA cheating strategy 102 (borrow force).

[marvin8]

Your jab-jab-cross is training too, not fighting. I am still not understanding. You can drill hitting hands/arm wrapping 60 times with your student not throwing punches and extending/freezing his arms while stepping. Or, your student/feeder can use the jab-jab-cross method, more realistic punches. How does your reply answer...?

Do you agree that to pull back your hand empty is a bad idea "手不空回"? ...

https://i.postimg.cc/1Xv5vP8c/my-jab-hook-uppercut.gif

That is a different subject. My questions were in regards to your training...

When I can do

- left hook,
- right hook,
- left arm wrap,
- right head lock,
- left leg step in,
- right leg cut,

to respond to my opponent's jab and cross with speed. I feel I was still in my 30.

Can you answer these?

Here your student does not throw punches, but extends/freezes his arms and steps...

However, you demo with your students freezing their arms in the air. If you want to demo blocking (hitting) and arm wrapping punches, why not throw punches? Why not demo your (hitting arms, arm wrapping, etc)...with your jab-jab-cross method?

[marvin8]

you demo with your students freezing their arms in the air.

As I have said, if my left hook cannot hit on my opponent's right jab, I won't move in. As long as the contact is made, I'll move in. If my left hand can reach to his right shoulder, it doesn't matter whether he pulls back his right punching arm or not.

It does "matter" with your jab-jab-cross method (or realistic punches). Whether you miss your left hook or make contact, the opponent can still punch you in the face with their left cross:

If I can move in so close that I can kiss my opponent, whether he pulls his punching arm back or not won't make any difference. I will still get him a head lock. So I don't understand why you are so concern about the punching arm pulling.

It "makes a difference" when you miss hitting your opponent's punches, as it opens you to counters. You won't get close if the opponent punches you.

In Nick Diaz vs Koji Oishi, Oishi's strategy was to hit Diaz's punches with his punches—resulting in Oishi getting KOd.

Both Qi La La and Rahsun missed their "arm pulling," which turned into the typical clinch to head control. But, their hand chasing left them open to counters:

My both hands will pass my opponent's head and shoulders.

Your diagram is inaccurate. The opponent's shoulders (B) are bladed when they throw punches (like in your punching clip). (B) can punch between or over your arms, while your shoulders (A) are squared in attempting to hit punches or grab.

Grabbing (Rousey) vs Punching (Nunes):



If you want to train "to respond to my opponent's jab and cross with speed," then shouldn't your student/feeder throw jabs and crosses (e.g., jab-jab-cross)?

[johnwang]

Here your student does not throw punches, but extends/freezes his arms and steps...

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to explain. My student may try to change his jab into a hook. He is not trying to pull his jab back. He doesn't want to pull his hand back empty.

If you want to train "to respond to my opponent's jab and cross with speed," then shouldn't your student/feeder throw jabs and crosses (e.g., jab-jab-cross)?

If my student uses jab-jab-cross for head lock training, since the 1st jab is real and the 2nd jab is fake, I will move in during his 1st real jab, I will not wait for his 2nd fake jab. My right arm will guide his left arm away from his head to prevent his left cross.

[wayne hansen]

The student should naturally react or the training is useless

[johnwang]

The student should naturally react or the training is useless

That is natural reaction.

- A punches B with jab.
- B blocks with hook.
- A borrows B's force, spins his arm, and change jab into hook.
- B reverse his clockwise hook, change into counter-clockwise arm wrap to meet with A's hook.

Since A's hook has been interrupted half way, it may look like he leaves his arm out.

In the following clip, I rotate my arm, my opponent also rotates his arm with me and tries to hook punch to my head. He tries to borrow my force and let me to hit into the thin air. I try to interrupt his striking path.

Both are natural reaction.

[origami_itto]

The work with your students doesn't look like any actual fight though. He's just sticking his arm out there and waiting for you to perform your techniques. It might be technically sound and raisin technique but I don't think being able to pull off a set of moves against a motionless opponent really demonstrates any particular skill or speed.

Even in the latest one where he's punching, people don't punch like that if they mean it. Purely demo-fu.

I mean no disrespect against your talent or training, just saying these clips don't show anything but that your students are compliant.

[johnwang]

Purely demo-fu.

I assume you will call this kind of training as demo-fu. I guess I have been doing demo-fu all my lives.

There is no slow speed training in the SC system. Even the beginners have to train in regular speed.

your students are compliant.

Of course my opponent is compliant. It's training.