the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Been working on getting the "laorenjia" (old man frame) out of my material and in looking around I've found a couple of guys that have shocking hand speed in their forms.

First up is pigua:

Check out his movement at :18 into the clip. I've seen fast pigua before but this takes it to airplane propeller level. I notice his torso is making only small moves.

Second is Ma Lin Cheng doing his 64 swimming body BGZ palm

Notice the palm at around the 1:03 mark. His hands are a blur.

Needless to say i've started incorporating pigua back into my training and I'm finding it's really loosening my xingyi up.

Any thoughts on how to get the "old man taichi" out of your forms?

From what I recall from your blog (which I loved btw), you practiced Chen Pan Ling material right?

Is there a particular form that you're working on? For me, I try to keep mantis or pigua in my repertoire so I don't get too slow. I practice Wutan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3mUaDRAfEw

8 steps mantis has some quick hands


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yau24iA_mZk

Living with the Shyun family for several years, it was during this stay in the Shyun’s home that Grandmaster Wei made the decision to pass the true heart of the Eight Step Preying Mantis system to his young disciple. Taking advantage of their private setting, Wei proceeded to pass on the details of the Eight Step system, sometimes even using street-fighters for training partners for the developing Shyun.

https://www.8stepmantis.com/8-step-mantis-kung-fu

interesting history, met the teacher in the 80s....in SF
very quick hands, body movement.

GM Su Yu Zhang - "Lightning Hands" - Over his life time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBbjPiBAAJg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L15u2hSsuc



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzsRS9T_nFM

https://youtu.be/luKUJ8WhVio

The late Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Southern Praying Mantis GM Mark Gin-Foon.

vietle87 wrote:From what I recall from your blog (which I loved btw), you practiced Chen Pan Ling material right?

Is there a particular form that you're working on? For me, I try to keep mantis or pigua in my repertoire so I don't get too slow. I practice Wutan.

Well thanks for the compliment. Always surprised people still remember and yes, I mostly do CPL material. We have forms named "thunder stick" and "lighting hands" but it seems the storm needs to be .....ahem...."rekindled" if you get my meaning. The more i look around and the more i talk to others, the more aware I've become that few of us are being taught HOW to move fast, especially in the form work. It's not a matter of "just move quicker" like most people think.

For example, one guy that does a branch of our stuff moves fast and you can see he is doing variations on the movements that differ from the normally seen forms. The variations are smoother and more fluid than the normally seen ones, allowing for greater speed, but some people that haven't been taught those variations might feel "that isn't what we do." He has also done a ton of upper body jibengong training.

Part of what prompted my interest in this topic was a recent video by Yang Hai about opening the kua, the shoulders, and the thoracic spine.

Focusing on these three areas is opening up my movements and allowing me to move faster in my forms so far. I was wondering if anyone else had come across any of this.

Formosa Neijia wrote:Part of what prompted my interest in this topic was a recent video by Yang Hai about opening the kua, the shoulders, and the thoracic spine.

Focusing on these three areas is opening up my movements and allowing me to move faster in my forms so far. I was wondering if anyone else had come across any of this.

I thought the idea of opening the joints was part of taiji training. There are sayings like it's better to stretch 1/2 inch than gain 2 inches in circumference. Quickness and agility are qualities trained in Chen taiji. Agility is seen in good Yang style training.


Notice how James Fu keeps his back pretty upright and is able to comfortably use his dantian in a low posture.

Hi Dave,

I wrote about this subject of going fast last week:

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2021/06/2 ... -chi-slow/

Might be something there you find interesting.

Cheers
G

I met Yang Hai many years ago when I visited Montreal. He let me visit, take a class and he touched with me for a few applications. He’s great.

These videos are master class material.

Edit: caught the shout out to Dr Fish in the video as well!

only watched that second video, but damn, that guy can move so well all around. every limb and joint look good.

A: Dear sir! How fast is fast?
B: When you can only see your hand like a blur. When you feel that your eye balls are going to fly out of your eye sockets.

My eyes fail me as I get older (I am an old man now ) but what I have seen as fast hands makes no sense to me if they are useless. Wushuchangquan, like other arts today, is about nandu therefore no observable function at all except gymnastic display, high and flashy kicks, etc. Additionally, the same people who do taolu rarely enter sanshou or other type competitive arena events and they don't last long in that arena. Just sayin'

Fast hands don't mean much without power. For both hand speed and power, Tongbei gets my vote.

In a fight, Schilling does a switch cross, but only moves the front foot back. Similar concept as "whole body," coordinating hand with foot landing, while faster and more economical (e.g., less telegraph) than Adam Hsu's.

Around 1980 I met Madame Zhu Suyi. She was a well regarded martial artist in Taiwan, and had assisted in the development of Chen Panling's Taiji (she is seen in some of the old group photos with Master Chen). She told me that my Xingyi was good - but needed loosening up, and that it lacked springy, elastic force. To remedy this she taught me Mian Qian exercises and Wu Xing Tong Bei (she was one of Xiu Jianchi's last students). I still practice both - being somewhere in my 60's I find strength and speed are vitally important.