Which strategy is better?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Which strategy is better?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:09 pm

Which strategy is better in your opinion?

1. A throw jab/cross. B uses double comb hair (or crazy monkey) to block it.

Image

2. A throws jab/cross. B uses double hooks to counter it.

Image[/quote]
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:17 pm

Depends on the context - 1 looks like it works better with gloves. 2 leaves you open for counter, but might work better without gloves.

Spar and find out what works best :)
I could be wrong.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:42 am

Well, seeing as I've seen many high level strikers adopt the first strategy and I have never once seen the second in action, I think I'll go with what's tried and true.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:07 am

johnwang wrote:Which strategy is better in your opinion?

The way the jab/cross is thrown in strategy 1 is not the same as in strategy 2. To compare, it's better to throw the jab/cross the same way, more realistically. (I posted the 1st clip to show a jab/cross/hook thrown in training, not fighting. There are more ways to defend.)

In strategy 1 — You are less open to counters.

In strategy 2 — You are open to counters, even if you make contact. Using the concepts (not only techniques) in your jab-jab-cross method, the opponent can still punch you in the face with their cross. You said, "the moment your opponent tries to block it, you pull it back...You lead your opponent to block into the thin air:"

Image

In Nick Diaz vs Koji Oishi:

Strategy 1 — Diaz's strategy was to punch Oishi's face.
Strategy 2 — Oishi's strategy was to punch Diaz's punches.

Diaz KOd Oishi.

In Rousey vs Nunes:

Strategy 1 — Nunes' strategy was to punch Rousey's face.
Strategy 2 — Rousey's strategy was to grab for arm and head control.

Nunes KOd Rousey:

Image

Which strategy is better in your opinion?
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:48 am

1 is effective against attacks to the side-door: hooks and round, large attacks from the side. (With or without gloves works just as fine)
2 seems to be better against attacks to the front door: jabs, straight punches.

However, people tend to combine different types of punches and attacking strategy, so your defense should be flexible enough to cover up both front and side doors, higher and lower attacks. So both of them are too limited to just choose just one of them.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby everything on Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:23 am

for the second, you are sort of punching the punch?

as far as never seeing it, oragami, you can see Fedor kind of "punch the arm", but he's more doing guard removal I guess. Or he's aiming at the head but his arm hits the arm, that becomes an entry for a throw. So I suppose the technical details are different, but would like to hear you guys explain those, as I don't know. It seems like 1) is for later in the move, and 2) is a little more proactive, has to be done earlier. .... so the answer is "it depends"?
Last edited by everything on Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:28 am

I think Fedor uses an open hand so he can grab for, as you mentioned, guard removal.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby everything on Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:34 am

oragami_itto wrote:I think Fedor uses an open hand so he can grab for, as you mentioned, guard removal.


I'm not sure. It might vary. I posted gifs of him vs. Tim Sylvia before. It seems like 2-3 things. Not sure this one will paste correctly.
Image

he seems to slap a hand down with an open hand. later he tries an upper cut then a straighter punch, then sort of "chops" or "hooks" tim's arm downward, in a very fluid way. his fist might still be closed and he's using the wrist, perhaps. almost like single whip lolol

but i seem to recall seeing him go for the big casting punch that turns into a hip throw. a bit different.

but in this case, he's more the attacker, not "defending" as in the comb hair example.
Last edited by everything on Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby Walk the Torque on Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:26 pm

It depends who your fighting and what tools they have at their command.

Say if you use strat 1; after arm to arm contact is made the person punching presses against your hair combing arm and forces it into your face causing a) momentary loss of vision b) momentary restriction of movement c) loss of balance requiring a reset to stable stance. Any of these issues places you at a deficit from which you have to return to a workable homeostasis. If the deficit is capitalized upon it could be curtains.

Strat 2 (even though I don't like those blocks and would use something else) is not much good if you get faked out with a non committed punch. if you miss Blocking or striking the first strike you can be left open to a nasty hit.

Leaving out other strategies (as we were only given these options) I suppose testing the opponent to see what percentage of which strategy they use and adjust yours accordingly.
Last edited by Walk the Torque on Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:50 pm

Walk the Torque wrote:Strat 2 (even though I don't like those blocks and would use something else) is not much good if you get faked out with a non committed punch. if you miss Blocking or striking the first strike you can be left open to a nasty hit.

This is why you just circle your arms to the right place. Whether you can hit your opponent's arms or not, your arms will stop right there and not move any further.

Even if you may miss the blocking, your arms should still guard the right position in front of you and not over committed.

It's very similar to the WC Tan Shou application. You put your arm in your center line. Whether your arm can make contact on your opponent's arm or not, you just want to use your arm to guard that space.

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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:55 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Purely demo-fu. ...

your students are compliant.

Of course my opponent is compliant. It's training.

"We fight as we train." The training feeder in strategy 1 is more realistic (e.g., punching rhythm, distance, movement, etc.) than the training feeder in strategy 2. CMA is more than just techniques.

johnwang wrote:2. A throws jab/cross. B uses double hooks to counter it.

1. A throws jab, feints cross. B uses double hooks to counter. A uses cross to punch B.

2. A throws jab. B uses double hooks to counter it. A throws hook to KO B:

Image

3. A throws jab. B uses double hooks to counter it. A enters side door and throws uppercut to KO B:

Image

4. A feints jab. B uses double hooks to counter it. A throws...to punch B.

5. A feints cross. B uses double hooks to counter it. A throws...to punch B.

6. A throws jab/cross. B uses double hooks to counter it. Then, B tries to grab A. A punches in between or over B's arms to KO B:

Image

7. etc. ...
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:17 pm

marvin8 wrote:"We fight as we train." ...

CMA separates fighting from training.

CMA uses:

- partner drill to train.
- sparring/wrestling to test (you may call this training).
- solo drill to polish.
- weight equipment to enhance.

Training:



Testing:



Polishing:

Image

Enhancing:

Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:49 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"We fight as we train." ...

CMA separates fighting from training.

CMA uses:

- partner drill to train.
- sparring/wrestling to test (you may call this training).


Okay so what I think is missing in what you post is the testing phase. When have you or your students tested your combat hypotheses against opponents who resist and move realistically and did you get any video?

And no I'm not taking about your well established shuai jiao record and mastery, I mean all the strategies for dealing with boxers that you are sharing.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:16 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Okay so what I think is missing in what you post is the testing phase. When have you or your students tested your combat hypotheses against opponents who resist and move realistically and did you get any video?

And no I'm not taking about your well established shuai jiao record and mastery, I mean all the strategies for dealing with boxers that you are sharing.

They train partner drills in class. They go to local MMA gym and Sanda tournament to test their skill.

Hook punch are used in both clips.

1. Use double hooks to create clinch.

Image

Use hook to create head lock. followed with uppercut.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which strategy is better?

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:28 pm

Nice
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