Stop going for the big push!!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:07 pm

Hey Trip, fwiw, I used to attend Alex Dong's seminars in NYC --on Lafayette St. The style is distinctive.
Anyway, afa the video, there's never been a tjq vid that satisfies 50% of the tjq community. :) The things I would note are 1) there aren't many useless movements before he executes. 2) Yeah, I guess you could say that he was doing Grasp Bird's Tail, but GBT is inherent in most hand techniques. I mean, it's the basis. 3) What's more important to the execution is that he steps diagonally to the side --and the step, imo, is necessary. 4) Unlike "push" or the An in the form, he executes with one hand. Granted, An or a push/shove can be done with one hand.

That relates somewhat to uprooting, or the particularly CMC technique of "pushing" an opponent upward. The thing is, in CMC style, uprooting is done using both hands. More importantly, the power does not come from the hands or arms at all. It can't. The power comes from sinking and then rising. You have to be below the opponent's center of mass. Well, ymmv. Secondly, CMC uproots using the "Press" - or Ward-off slantingly upward-- position as often as not. Note the differences in this vid I just found. PS. I'm not defending or offending, just pointing something out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Trip on Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:48 pm

Greetings Steve,

I feel I should say
I wasn't out to attack you Steve
or out Taiji talk you.
I was just replying to your observation of a horizontal movement in the GIF I posted.
I thought the explanation was simple

Steve James wrote:...Yeah, I guess you could say that he was doing Grasp Bird's Tail...
...Unlike "push" or the An in the form, he executes with one hand.
Granted, An or a push/shove can be done with one hand.


I'm not 100% clear on your reply to me.
Your quoted phrases above seem to imply to me that the GIF did not contain a push
or if it was a push it was single hand so...technically could be called a push?...If I insist?

Ah...Yeah...I think he finishes with a push.

Anyway, all I can say is okay.
I respect your Cheng Man Ching linage, your Taiji POV and enjoy your posts. :)
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Subitai on Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:04 pm

Trip wrote:Here's an effective push

Image



HEY TRIP....Whats great about this vid is he doesn't just push him...his right foot steps behind and HE TRIPS him as well.
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Trip on Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:09 pm

Greetings Subitai,

Totally agree!
Footwork is Key :)

Edit:
(HEY TRIP... HE TRIPS him as well. :D)
Last edited by Trip on Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:15 pm

Aw, it's just one's guy's pov. All I can say is that I didn't make it up, but I'm sure there are other perspectives. Yeah, all we're doing is sharing. There are many different approaches.

So, is the extended hand in Brush Knee doing An? Depends. One could imagine that the hand does a downward circle, but there's no reason it couldn't be almost linear. (Big circle, little circle). Then there are the punches. Some go vertically upward; some vertically downward; some diagonally up, etc., some horizontally to the left. That's just the form, not the potential combinations.
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby johnwang on Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:07 pm

Subitai wrote:HEY TRIP....Whats great about this vid is he doesn't just push him...his right foot steps behind and HE TRIPS him as well.

You are right. That's not just a push. That's push + shin bite (or scoop). To be able to control your opponent's leg is the key.
I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Trip on Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:21 pm

John & Subitai,

I like what both of you are saying.
But, I'd like to add that you don't have to trip to get a good Taiji push
When teaching push, I first teach that to get an effective push - Step deep
Step past the opponent's heel.
If you can step past both heels, even better.

The opponent may trip over your deep step anyway, but it wasn't step in and trip.

Note:
This post doesn't mean that tripping isn't good
or that tripping should not be done. :)
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Trip on Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:24 pm

Steve James wrote:...Aw, it's just one's guy's pov. All I can say is that I didn't make it up...


Never thought you made it up.
And, yes sharing is good. :D
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Taste of Death on Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:40 am

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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:34 am

I used the big push as a bouncer. When you get it right there's not much impact felt at the contact point. If you stick with them as they fly it's like you picked them up walked them across the room and gently put them down. It tends to take the fight right out of them. If it doesn't you're in a good position to put them down with or without leg skill.
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:42 am

Fwiw, I totally agree with using the legs. In the clip that John Wang posted, though, I'd describe it more as an application of BKTS, not "push" or a push. My idea of a "push" --which has only a little to do with "An"-- is more in line with what origami-itto mentioned. If someone asked me "Why push," my first response would be that it gives me space and time. Ime, origami-itto is right. If it's a drunk guy, he'll just fall down. Yeah, he may get up again, but so what. If the guy is just a pita who thinks you're easy meat, a good shove can convince him otherwise. Sure, either of these situations could have been handled with a pencil in the eye, but what would be the point?

Otoh, if the other guy really wants to fight, who says anyone is limited to pushing? Besides, if the guy comes back, then it's much easier to decide how far to escalate. Obviously, in a competition, the opponent's intentions are known.
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Doc Stier on Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:08 am

The best pushes, in my experience, are not the Big Push efforts to blast someone across the room as if they were fired from a cannon, but rather the smaller, softer, and far more subtle manipulations of someone's structure and stability, momentarily leaving them vulnerable to swift countermeasures which they are unable to effectively react and respond to, because their stability recovery time will generally be slower than the speed of the countermeasures. 8-)
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:49 pm

I have concern about video like this.

Why is it always a teacher pushes on a student? If the teacher taught his student right, his student should be able to push his teacher too. If a skill cannot be passed down from one generation to another generation, it's not a valid skill.

Also why does his student start with a square stance and wait to be pushed? Has his teacher taught him that a square stance will give him weak balance in the forward-backward direction?

This video demo can be a better if

- The student stands in a side stance (to show that his teacher taught him to never stand in square stance in front of his opponent).
- The teacher pushes the student. The student yields, borrows the teacher's pushing force, and spins his body (to prove that his teacher taught him how to yield and borrow force).
- The teacher then takes advantage on his student's spinning, and ... (to prove that the teacher knows how to deal with the change).

Image

Here is a video that a student throw the teacher. It proves that a valid skill can be passed down from one generation to another generation. The teacher has side stance with 1 foot forward and 1 foot backward. The student uses shin bite to force the teacher to step back that leading foot to create that opportunity. The teacher does not start with a square stance and wait to be thrown.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:11 pm

johnwang wrote:I have concern about video like this.

Why is it always a teacher pushes on a student? If the teacher taught his student right, his student should be able to push his teacher too. If a skill cannot be passed down from one generation to another generation, it's not a valid skill.

Also why does his student start with a square stance and wait to be pushed? Has his teacher taught him that a square stance will give him weak balance in the forward-backward direction?

This video demo can be a better if

- The student stands in a side stance (to show that his teacher taught him to never stand in square stance in front of his opponent).
- The teacher pushes the student. The student yields, borrows the teacher's pushing force, and spins his body (to prove that his teacher taught him how to yield and borrow force).
- The teacher then takes advantage on his student's spinning, and ... (to prove that the teacher knows how to deal with the change).


Agree 100% to everything said here. The square stance is ridiculous. It is common in the Huang lineage, so I think Huang must have adapted it from his white crane.

We never practice pushing from stationary stances. It's always from movement and it is always about adapting to movement and about adapting to changes. My teacher let me practice on him, and everything I have done on a student, pushing, throwing, qinna, I have always let them do the same to me.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stop going for the big push!!

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:06 pm

His square stance is for demonstration only one of his pushing exercises is done in the square stance and that is single arm drop a pulling exercise
Any others in square stance are white crane exercises
The push can be used in combat it is even used in western boxing
Training the push however is to train other skills
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