Taiji Resonance

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:27 pm

Trip wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:The first post was one of the best things I have read on this forum
Delete the rest


But, a little understanding doesn't hurt :)

wayne hansen wrote:And there are times it dosent help


True!
But...

windwalker wrote:It's funny,
you are correct, posted to much,,,
haha, laughing at myself.... :)
interesting read.


He found it interesting
and had a laugh

He was not hurt
I am not hurt
No harm done. :D
Last edited by Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Taste of Death on Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:52 pm

Trip wrote:I teach to the person

And, because I teach to the person
If I were, teaching you
I'd find out what's up with you and start from there


This should be true for all individual athletics. This is how track and field is taught. We all understand things differently. There isn't enough time or patience to do this with a team sport.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby marvin8 on Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:55 pm

Trip wrote:
Steve James wrote:Well, are you sure that resonance occurs in the application of tjq? Isn't resonance based on frequency?

Afa the swing phenomenon, I thought you were relating it to the "4 oz v 1K lbs" effect. I.e., once the swing is moving, it only takes a very small amount of added force at the correct time to increase its movement.

Yes. ...

I use and demo it more like this:
"it only takes a very small amount of added force at the correct time
to take advantage of an opponent's movements."

Thanks for bringing more clarity :)
Trip wrote:You find Resonance a strange word?
Okay, fine by me
If teaching you, I wouldn't use the word Resonance as an example for you. :)

You didn't include/answer Steve's first question. To effect an opponent, usually only one taiji push is required, not "repeatedly applied force." In which "application of tjq" do you find "Resonance" a relevant word?

Trip wrote:Note:
Resonance: a vibration of large amplitude in a mechanical or electrical system caused by a relatively small periodic stimulus of the same or nearly the same period as the natural vibration period of the system

The phenomenon in which a relatively small, repeatedly applied force causes the amplitude of an oscillating system to become very large is called resonance. Many of the serious vibration problems in engineering are caused by resonance. If, for example, the natural frequency of the body of an automobile is the same as that of the series of combustions in the engine when the car is traveling at a certain speed, the body might begin to vibrate or shake roughly.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:09 pm

Greeting Marvin,

I find so many things wrong with your questions that I don't have the desire to point them all out.
But, I will reply to one thing

marvin8 wrote:To effect an opponent, usually only one taiji push is required, not "repeatedly applied force."


I have found that in a fight
Sometimes one punch required
Sometimes more than one punch required

The same goes for Taiji
Sometimes you need one push
Sometimes you might need more than one push

Also, there might be a partial answer to your question here
Ponder this post from a respected member

Doc Stier wrote:The best pushes, in my experience, are not the Big Push efforts to blast someone across the room as if they were fired from a cannon, but rather the smaller, softer, and far more subtle manipulations of someone's structure and stability, momentarily leaving them vulnerable to swift countermeasures which they are unable to effectively react and respond to, because their stability recovery time will generally be slower than the speed of the countermeasures.


I teach to the person

And, because I teach to the person
If I were, teaching you
I'd find out what's up with you and start from there

So…
Do You, Marvin, find Resonance a strange word?
If you do,
Okay, fine by me

Then, in teaching you, I wouldn't use the word Resonance as an example for you.
...

Lastly

Not only do seem to have missed the overall point of my first post
I am not certain you questioned me in good faith to learn, or start a cool dialogue or whatever

I get the feeling you came here to throw rocks
Meaning no matter what my answer
You will continue to throw rocks until one lands

I don’t know if for certain if that’s true, but...
Until my feelings about you changes

If you were to ask follow up questions,
there's a chance I may choose to not reply to them.

Not that I dislike you
It's just that the throwing rocks position has already been filled. :)
Last edited by Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby marvin8 on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:16 pm

Trip wrote:Greeting Marvin,

I find so many things wrong with your questions that I don't have the desire to point them all out.
But, I will reply to one thing

marvin8 wrote:To effect an opponent, usually only one taiji push is required, not "repeatedly applied force."

No, I rephrased only one question, Steve's that you left out:

marvin8 wrote:
Steve James wrote:Well, are you sure that resonance occurs in the application of tjq? Isn't resonance based on frequency?

Afa the swing phenomenon, I thought you were relating it to the "4 oz v 1K lbs" effect. I.e., once the swing is moving, it only takes a very small amount of added force at the correct time to increase its movement.

You didn't include/answer Steve's first question. To effect an opponent, usually only one taiji push is required, not "repeatedly applied force." In which "application of tjq" do you find "Resonance" a relevant word?


Trip wrote:The same goes for Taiji
Sometimes you need one push
Sometimes you might need more than one push

For each individual swing or tjq push again, how is "Resonance" a relevant word?

Trip wrote:I get the feeling you came here to throw rocks

No, I rephrased Steve James's question. To characterize other "respected members" (e.g, Steve James, windwalker, drifting, Doc Stier) discussing/"talking/exchanging" your topic "Taiji Resonance" as "throwing rocks" is a straw man/person argument.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby johnwang on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:33 pm

Trip wrote:And sticking and following as another tool in their tool box.
And, sticking & listening can make smashing them in the face even easier.

To stick, listen, yield, follow is one approach. To shake your opponent and interrupt his movement is another approach.

When your opponent swings

- toward you, if you give him a push,
- away from you, if you give him a pull,

you can interrupt that swing.

I don't understand why IMA does not address this method - "shaking".

Why do you want to shake your opponent? You don't want him to generate speed and power during the initial stage. When you throw a right punch at me, if I can push on your right shoulder, even 4 oz force can stop your punch.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:44 pm

johnwang wrote:...I don't understand why IMA does not address this method - "shaking".

Why do you want to shake your opponent? You don't want him to generate speed and power during the initial stage. When you throw a right punch at me, if I can push on your right shoulder, even 4 oz force can stop your punch.


Agree! Shaking is a great tool. It's not as emphasized today as it was in the past.

The Tung Family practiced it for years.

In fact the older Yang Family members and the Tungs, Tian Zhaolin & Chen Wei Ming all
wrote a lot about Shaking Energy, practiced & taught it

Here's a few quotes from their writing

According to Tung Ying chieh's classification, there are still some other Jin or Energies, the names of which are: Stick-dynamic. Follow-Close. Light, Alert, Sinking, Raising, Crushing, Twisting, Attaching, Prop-up, Rubbing, Discharging, Shaking, Prompting, Departing, Suddenness, Tenth-of-an-Inch, Accumulating and Releasing of the Arrow Energy. (See Tung Ying-chieh, A Treatise on Taijiquan, 5th edition, p. 70. 1966. Hong Kong.)


Notes: then a break must be added. Yang Luchan explains, “... shake him like a rootless tree and destabilize his stance, then he will certainly fall over naturally.”
THE TAIJIQUAN CLASSICS - Davis


Shaohou's arts were:
• He used soft to overcome hard;
• He used sticking and following, overwhelming fajin;
• He used trembling punches;
• To move energy he used: sticking/following, shaking and hooking.


13. Basic steps to learning push hands is to know the power.
There are many different types of power such as: stick on power, follow on power, internal power, suspending power, rubbing power, tendering power, fastening power, holding power, touching power, and pushing power. As well there are types of power such as penetrating bone power, shaking power,

In general the above powers are learned from the feeling developed during practice. It is harder to learn the power by oneself, but easier with two people, as people are alive.

Tung Ying Chieh
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:42 am

Sadly, the type of tactics, techniques, and power generation typically seen in Push Hands competition everywhere today includes none of the above methods in most instances. :-\
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:06 am

For arts specializing in neutralization, seems like the shaking would be antithetical to the practice.
Don’t remember this being used in my teachers group or something that we practiced .
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby robert on Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:16 am

windwalker wrote:
For arts specializing in neutralization, seems like the shaking would be antithetical to the practice.

The source of huajin and fajin is the same; the better you get at one the better you get at the other. YMMV.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:44 am

robert wrote:
windwalker wrote:
For arts specializing in neutralization, seems like the shaking would be antithetical to the practice.

The source of huajin and fajin is the same; the better you get at one the better you get at the other. YMMV.


might be interesting the contrast between depth and level.
Speaking from one’s own ability or what they’ve felt.

In your own words what makes it’s so.
Not about being right or wrong just interesting reading others thoughts/ experience
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby robert on Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:13 am

windwalker wrote:might be interesting the contrast between depth and level.
Speaking from one’s own ability or what they’ve felt.

In your own words what makes it’s so.
Not about being right or wrong just interesting reading others thoughts/ experience

The legs and waist are used to neutralize, the legs and waist are used to issue. There are requirements to sink and to be connected; given that the more you can loosen and relax the more effective your neutralization will be and the more effective your issuing will be.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby origami_itto on Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:03 pm

Resonance seems like a misnomer for most purposes here I think. Usually when I think resonance, like with the bridge, there's a specific frequency the entire body will vibrate when struck that is the resonant frequency of the bridge. If something is incrementally increasing the amplitude of the vibrations, then the structure will vibrate more intensely in the same frequency until it shakes itself apart. But the key aspect of "resonance" as a definition in mechanical engineering is the oscillating frequency. IMO

In the super slow and sensitive game, just running a single hand pattern, for example, I've experienced times where I can resonate with my partner and gradually increase the length of their cycle, imperceptibly pushing them back a little more each time and creating a feeling of "void" or "stickiness" on my withdraw resulting in an equal increase in their forward movement (my "pull" but simply leading) in response. Eventually they fall out of their stance, usually on their "push" turn when they're moving forward. Fun in that context but outside of that, pretty useless. All about sensitivity and (their lack of) self awareness. This seems like "resonance" to my way of thinking.

Otherwise in a more freestyle type situation, it's more of a "one shot" or "one two" sort of technique. There's the sort of basic level of following their body when they withdraw laterally and then pushing when they're at that cusp about to come back the other way, before the power is there. Perfectly fine, but limited in scope. The more "advanced" technique is prompting a reflexive response from the opponent/partner and adding your own power to that response to completely throw them.

Like a good push hands example that takes a little practice to dial in is a side to side push. You push against their right shoulder with your left hand and their body will resist that push, you then take it away while pushing on their left shoulder with the right hand. The important part is you never really let your initial push offer any force. It's not a steady push that you then release, because that is too easy to counter in my experience. The time it takes to tear down the push and remove your hand is enough time for them to process what's happening and not respond incorrectly. So the initial push is not a COMMITED push, but maybe it comes after a couple of committed pushes in that direction to train them to respond with that stiffness. Then your trap "half push" to set up the response that you commandeer for the throw.

Going further I think that this second technique is at the heart of the "controlling jin" of taijiquan in a full conflict situation. Stick-adhere-join-follow, turn every conscious and unconscious response on their part into a movement you control. Follow-to-lead. Their offensive movements are either neutralized, rebounded, or amplified out of their control.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:52 pm

:)
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:19 pm

So the initial push is not a COMMITED push, but maybe it comes after a couple of committed pushes in that direction to train them to respond with that stiffness. Then your trap "half push" to set up the response that you commandeer for the throw.

Going further I think that this second technique is at the heart of the "controlling jin" of taijiquan in a full conflict situation.


It's okay to play with a beginner like this, or against someone who is too hard and not sensitive. A good player won't fall for it, or won't even let you come close to try it. Against a non-taiji player it's unnecessary to add pressure to withdraw. If they have no developed balance, you should be able to cut their root instantly.

I am not sure what you mean with controlling Jin. Shouldn't ting and hua be enough to control with?
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