Taiji Resonance

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Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:19 am

:)
Last edited by Trip on Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:15 am

Well, are you sure that resonance occurs in the application of tjq? Isn't resonance based on frequency?

Afa the swing phenomenon, I thought you were relating it to the "4 oz v 1K lbs" effect. I.e., once the swing is moving, it only takes a very small amount of added force at the correct time to increase its movement. Of course, adding a greater amount of force will have the same effect. However, a greater amount of force applied at the incorrect moment will not have as much effect as a smaller amount applied at the correct moment. Sensitivity is the ability to listen for that precise moment --especially if one doesn't have the ability to apply a greater force. Iow, wrong time, place, and iinsufficient force, and the swing will knock you down. :)
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:26 am

:)
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:23 pm

Steve James wrote:Afa the swing phenomenon, I thought you were relating it to the "4 oz v 1K lbs" effect. I.e., once the swing is moving, it only takes a very small amount of added force at the correct time to increase its movement.


Yes.
There were having trouble understanding what you just said.
Wish you had been there to say that in simpler terms than my rant.
It might have given them a deeper insight

But, this is why brought them to the swing idea. To introduce and further their understanding of the principle. If they like it, and practice they could add it to their toolbox.

A small wording difference for me.
I use and demo it more like this:
"it only takes a very small amount of added force at the correct time
to take advantage of an opponent's movements."

Thanks for bringing more clarity :)
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:40 pm

windwalker wrote:You might find a more useful description / example in thinking about a pendulum


From my limited understanding a swing is a pendulum.
Or, at least a good example of one.

windwalker wrote:
Sometimes people think that a pendulum’s period depends on the displacement or the mass. Increasing the amplitude means that there is a larger distance to travel, but the restoring force also increases, which proportionally increases the acceleration. This means the mass can travel a greater distance at a greater speed.

These attributes cancel each other, so amplitude has no effect on period. The pendulum’s inertia resists the change in direction, but it’s also the source of the restoring force. As a result, the mass cancels out too.


I'm not totally grasping what you're ultimately trying to say.
Can you reword it and use a Taiji example?

I am not invested in swings or pendulums
I'm far more interested in Taiji.

Meaning I might have a better chance of understanding
if you tie it to a usage in Taiji

The swing was just a handy on the spot tool
to help them with a Taiji issue they were having.

And, for my education level,
the simpler the better

I'm very interested in understanding your message. :)
Last edited by Trip on Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:39 pm

Trip wrote:
windwalker wrote:You might find a more useful description / example in thinking about a pendulum


From my limited understanding a swing is a pendulum.
Or, at least a good example of one.

"swing" swinging an action of what a pendulum can do.
Pendulum :"a weight hung from a fixed point so that it can swing freely backward and forward"

windwalker wrote:
Sometimes people think that a pendulum’s period depends on the displacement or the mass. Increasing the amplitude means that there is a larger distance to travel, but the restoring force also increases, which proportionally increases the acceleration. This means the mass can travel a greater distance at a greater speed.

These attributes cancel each other, so amplitude has no effect on period. The pendulum’s inertia resists the change in direction, but it’s also the source of the restoring force. As a result, the mass cancels out too.


I'm not totally grasping what you're ultimately trying to say.
Can you reword it and use a Taiji example?

I am not invested in swings or pendulums
I'm far more interested in Taiji.

Meaning I might have a better chance of understanding
if you tie it to a usage in Taiji

The swing was just a handy on the spot tool
to help them with a Taiji issue they were having.

And, for my education level,
the simpler the better

I'm very interested in understanding your message. :)



The common image of taiji described as a scale.

Image


Defines and describes a number of important points for the function of Taiji.

” Stand like a balanced scale and rotate actively like a wheel. ”
立如平準、活似車輪

Use no more then 4oz in dealing with others, do not allow more then 4oz to be felt on ones self.
Taiji is no less then one yin, one yang, combined with out separation.

不加四兩以上於對方,也不讓自我感受多於四兩。 太極不外乎一陰一陽、陰陽相濟。


The scale might be described a Neutrally active function

a pendulum can be thought of as a actively neutral function

Image


Image

"restoring force "

在質量彈簧系統中,回復力就是彈簧力,它只是質量所在位置的函數。

"It is always directed back toward the equilibrium position of the system. The restoring force is often referred to in simple harmonic motion. The force which is responsible to restore original size and shape is called restoring force.”

If one can understand this through practice, it should be clear how, why the 4oz is used...


Even in standing still there is movement.

A dynamic balance between gravity pulling down, the body standing up.
The pivot point can be said to be where the CG is.
One of the reasons why being able to change ones own CG, and sense it in others is cultivated with the practice of Taiji

note: An answer to a question, some thoughts that we use in my practice.
others might and probably do have different ways of looking at it.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:29 pm

I listed the main ideas that seem to be in your post.


1. Pendulum
So, for you,
A playground swing that is hung from a fixed point that goes to & fro with a seated person.
That's just something that "Swings."
But, you do not consider that a pendulum?

2. Scale

The image of Taiji for you is a scale?
Is that specifically a Steelyard scale only?

And, the image describes a number of important Taiji functions?

And, that function is to sensitively weigh
Listening for the opponents energy?
Direction of attack?

3. Use NO MORE THAN 4oz

This is not figurative for you?
Use no more than 4 ounces is literal?
Meaning not just a smaller force relative to the opponent's force?

But, No matter how much force the opponent uses
you respond with just 4 ounces?

4. Actively Balance


Always actively seeking equilibrium
via Harmonic Motion?

5. Restoring Force

Always actively seeking a position of equilibrium & shape?
And, you do this via Harmonic Motion?
And, that even while standing still you are in constant dynamic motion?

6. Center Gravity

It is best to Pivot Where your Center Gravity is?
While sensing, being aware of the "others" Center Gravity?

7. Your POV

If correct
This is a summary of your POV
while understanding & accepting that "others" may look at things differently?

...

windwalker wrote:If one can understand this through practice, it should be clear how, why the 4oz is used...


Because I'm listening mode
I don't want to guess on why this should be clear
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why this should be clear

You've given a lot, Thank You :)
But, could you spell this out in a little more detail?
Last edited by Trip on Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:45 pm

A little confused....

you post this


Then I went on a rant about Natural Resonance Frequency
(Hey, I am what I am, a Taiji evangelist).
I continue with, “Hey, Using small force at the right phase can create large amplitude vibrations if in phase with oscillation system, yada-yada…”

Under these conditions resonance occurs.
Resonance can cause the thing you’re adding the small force to--makes their structure fall apart, blah-blah blah…
I noticed his eyes started to glaze over again.


But, this time, I quickly pulled out my phone and showed them a short video of the Tacoma Bridge breaking apart from resonance.




All posted explains the same ideas in a different way.


You asked about the 4 oz.

In my teacher's / my practice we use 3 levels of pressure at the contact point.

skin, hair, and air.

4 oz a good approximation of contact pressure at first level work.


interesting read.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:37 pm

The first post was one of the best things I have read on this forum
Delete the rest
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:14 am

windwalker wrote:A little confused....

“Stand like a balanced scale and rotate actively like a wheel. ”
You've never heard of this before ?
It's quite common, well known...maybe not..
You've never heard of this before ?


Of course I've heard of it.
But, these last few post were not about what I know
They were about this

I'm not totally grasping what you're ultimately trying to say.
Can you reword it and use a Taiji example?
the simpler the better

I'm very interested in understanding your message. :)


You said a lot
But, the ending was kind of unclear
It’s kind of like this incomplete sentence

Hey, Joe where you going?
I'm going to the market and then I going to go to _______
Want to come?
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:17 am

wayne hansen wrote:The first post was one of the best things I have read on this forum
Delete the rest


Wayne Hansen!!!
You're a honest breath of fresh air :D

But, a little understanding doesn't hurt :)
Last edited by Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:47 am

And there are times it dosent help
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby drifting on Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:08 pm

I couldn't resist this nerdy thread! Natural Resonance Frequency... I like to understand and explain and analysis these things, but can I ask, is the explanation to get across to others or to digest it in yourself? We all use language that represents our personal understanding, even when we try to get our point across to others. But when that kid "got" the swing example, he got it somatically and not cognitively, and this is the very essence of Taiji or the arts we practice! When someone has an "aha moment" it gets diminished or possibly destroyed when it gets explained. Like explaining a good joke, it looses the feeling right.

But since were all in our heads here... I find it strange to use a word like resonance here, and don't feel the term applies. I don't know Taiji so maybe Im putting my foot in my mouth by speaking here, so apologies if thats the case. If your talking about motion then wouldnt this be approaching attunement or coherent motion, where we "modify amplitude" to meet or catch up, then match, then influence or overtake?

Resonance is a quality of fields, like the emf produced by the heart. Being in resonance with another isnt in terms of mechanical motion but rather in terms of being thinking feeling. I really like your swing analogy, and when I consider that I try to feel that somatically and not contemplate rationale behind it. Kung fu is something we experience in our bodys, where its clear and honest, but when kung fu goes up to our minds it becomes a whole new entity and begins to sound like the "blind-men and the elephant" parable :)

Image
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:46 pm

drifting wrote:Resonance is a quality of fields, like the emf produced by the heart. Being in resonance with another isnt in terms of mechanical motion, but rather in terms of being, thinking, feeling. Kung fu is something we experience in our bodies, where its clear and honest, but when kung fu goes up to our minds, it becomes a whole new entity and begins to sound like the "blind-men and the elephant" parable :)

Image

Agreed. Experiential knowledge gained through regular, mindful awareness in training will generally be more valuable and informative than any amount of intellectual analysis or hypothetical conjecture. Thus, any relevant understanding of the energy dynamics inherent to these arts, including energetic resonancy, vibrational frequency, etc, can only be truly understood via refined feeling and sensitivity in the body. Anything other than this will simply be mental guesswork. :-\
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Re: Taiji Resonance

Postby Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:20 pm

drifting wrote:... can I ask, is the explanation to get across to others or to digest it in yourself?


Greetings Drifting,

The question was answered in first post.

I’m at a park. Someone new to Taiji asked me about Sticking.
They didn’t get the importance of sticking and listening.
Well…if you get good at sticking, you move in sync with your opponent & you use a small force to unbalance them.


They mention that since they were a young, they had trouble with timing in sports like baseball, basketball, etc.


I used the swing
as an on the spot tool
to help them understand

And, that physical interaction with the swing (and me) worked!
That's a Yay! in my book

It worked Right away, they understood.
It was so quick and natural, that even I wasn't sure they really understood.

It is not in their mind; it is in their body.
That's something new that they have never had.

Everything else that is brought up after
is an argument that you have formed
that is divorced from what happened in reality of with that person.
They were so Happy :)

I teach to the person

And, because I teach to the person
If I were, teaching you
I'd find out what's up with you and start from there

You find Resonance a strange word?
Okay, fine by me
If teaching you, I wouldn't use the word Resonance as an example for you. :)
Last edited by Trip on Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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