Taiji Resonance

[Trip]

[wayne hansen]

I have said many times
Tai chi is passed on literally from hand to hand
If your teacher has not got it neither will you
If you don't have it you can't guess what it is

[robert]

Also, I believe Feng Zhiqiang makes references to shaking too but I can't remember where or how detailed the references were.

Spear/long pole is used to develop power generation in a number of martial arts and taiji is no exception. When you train spear/long pole it will shake. Feng Zhiqiang's teacher, Chen Fake, was known for doing 300 repetitions of pole shaking exercises daily.

YCF's Method's of Applying Taijiquan

AN ANECDOTE ABOUT [THE SPEAR SKILL OF] YANG LUCHAN
...
Yang, using intention to move energy, gave his spear a shake and the friend rose up onto the roof. The man was amazed and stood there the way a simpleton leans forward. Yang laughed, calling for a step ladder to be brought.
...

LDH training pole shaking.

[robert]

I have said many times
Tai chi is passed on literally from hand to hand
If your teacher has not got it neither will you
If you don't have it you can't guess what it is

This.

[Doc Stier]

I have said many times
Tai chi is passed on literally from hand to hand
If your teacher has not got it neither will you
If you don't have it you can't guess what it is

Agreed. It's generally impossible to teach anyone something which they think they already know, and equally impossible to teach anyone something which you yourself can't do.

[Steve James]

Well, I'm not sure that there's agreement on what "shaking" is, or even if people are talking about the same thing. There seem to be several different descriptions of the effect. We learned pole-shaking (as do practitioners of many martial arts. Yeah, training with the 13 foot pole wasn't a daily thing. But, the pole is an interesting way to look at the "resonance" issue and Trip's swing.

I.e., the idea of pole-shaking is to be able to produce a large amount of power using relatively little movement. The energy travels through the pole as a wave. (The idea behind longer weapons is to be able to extend power (and qi), no?). Yeah, the end of the pole does shake; and, if someone could hold onto it, they'd "shake."

But, I'm not sure John W meant this kind of shake. I know the pole is associated with the Yang becauseof an accident with a spear. Anyway, iirc, wasn't it a Chen guy who argued that pole-shaking was the secret?

[marvin8]

... Why do you want to shake your opponent? You don't want him to generate speed and power during the initial stage. When you throw a right punch at me, if I can push on your right shoulder, even 4 oz force can stop your punch.

Do you have a clip of "stopping a right punch by pushing on right shoulder?"

it's the exact opposite of tjq theory.

The major missing part of the Taiji theory is "give before take". You attack me. I step to the side. You fall off the cliff. How often can that happen? Without giving and just want to take is not realistic. I don't like Taiji principle "if you don't move, I won't move." I like the principle, "I make you move, I then take advantage on your respond."

You are talking about when your opponent has generate speed and power. I'm talking about before your opponent has generated speed and power. ...

One time a boxer challenged me. He ran toward me and tried to knock my head off. I raised my leg and he ran into my front kick with 2 broken ribs. That was force against force.

I don't believe that part is "missing." I entice/yin/give (e.g., asking hand) you. You attack me. I position (e.g., roll back, step forward/back, etc.) and issue (e.g., push, throw, punch, kick, etc) when you are double heavy.

- You move toward me, I give you a quick push.
- You move away from me, I give you a quick pull.
- You try to raise up, I give you a quick downward pull.
- You try to sink, I give you an quick elbow lift.
- ...

It's not force against force because you apply shaking during the initial stage when your opponent tries to generate power and speed.

It's still "force against force" but just your larger, old force against their smaller, new force.

In the initial stage, you entice (yin) to get a reaction from opponent. Then, you use the opponent's reaction force against themselves to finish, not "force against force."

Those are still force against force. Not force against force is: I step back (entice), you move toward me (chase), I throw/pull you forward:

[windwalker]

[windwalker]

[Doc Stier]

Mr. Ralston modestly admits in his writing that he was the best in every martial art he has studied.

[robert]

But, I'm not sure John W meant this kind of shake.

I'm not sure what you mean by this kind of shake? I first encountered the idea of shake in xingyi. I was taught that xingyi's five fists are derived from spear. The spear/long pole I've learned has both offensive and defensive moves and can be applied in many different ways. Here's an example from xingyi that seems to apply to what John was writing about. You shake the opponent to take their balance.

[windwalker]

[johnwang]

Do you have a clip of "stopping a right punch by pushing on right shoulder?

A: Do you have a clip of ...?
B: I have over 1000 clips on my computer.
A: But those clips are demo/training clip. Those are not fighting clip.
B:

[marvin8]

Do you have a clip of "stopping a right punch by pushing on right shoulder?

A: Do you have a clip of ...?
B: I have over 1000 clips on my computer.
A: But those clips are demo/training clip. Those are not fighting clip.
B:

A: Do you have a clip of "stopping a right punch by pushing on right shoulder?"
B: I have over 1000 clips on my computer.
A: Can you post clip(s) of "stopping a right punch by pushing on right shoulder," either "realistic" demo or training, if not fighting (which I never asked for)? You already posted some testing/fighting videos.
B:

[Steve James]

I'm not sure what you mean by this kind of shake?

I mean the pole-shaking exercise that you posted. That "shake." And, my point was that there wasn't an agreement on what all the posters have meant by shake. I don't think what you posted was what John W meant. But, it doesn't seem so based on our discussion of how he applies it.

Yeah, I've heard that Xingyi is based on the spear. Anyway, the thread is about resonance, and how it applies to tjq. Earlier, it was pointed out that "resonance" depends on frequency. So, "shaking" (or vibration, oscillation) could apply. Even a single "on/off" cycle would count. But, I think that's cheating. Any one/two (movement) could be considered a shake.

I brought up the Chen style fajing because some might describe it as shaking. If so, how many times does the body generally vibrate. Sorry, when I think of resonance, I think of sound (air movement) frequencies. I'm just trying to understand what everyone means. It doesn't matter whether I agree or not.