Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby Rhen on Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:16 am

Both Sun style and older Yang styles do this as mentioned in grahams podcast. One of my teachers explained in the Yang chengfu style the delivery of power in larger stances needs a pivot on the heel ( not ball of foot) for this.

In higher stances like Sun taijiquan the power needs to be delivered with a follow-up step similar to a western boxer who pivots on ball of foot (not heel).
Last edited by Rhen on Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rhen
Anjing
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:20 am

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby GrahamB on Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:46 am

Hi Rhen,

This is the bit with Brush Knee I was describing in the podcast:

Image

In our version quite a lot of the "follow steps" are not done on power delivery, but on the move before the power delivery. As you can see the "push" bit of the Brush knee is delivered in a bow stance, but there's a "feet together" bit before it.

That just probably makes everything more confusing, I know :)
I could be wrong.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12811
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby Steve James on Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:07 am

Hmm, I always thought that the follow step was the "close" part of "open/close." It was a "follow step," but not in the same sense as a "follow through." I dunno.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 20235
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:58 am

The T. T. Liang 150 posture form has stealing steps in the final grasp sparrows tail. As Graham notes they're done on the setup before power delivery.

As the waist turns to the left after ward off right the left foot comes to center. As the waist turns to the right the right foot steps out into the bow stance.

You can see Cheng man ching do something similar in his push hands demo films right before he launches his students.



This is probably the clearest and most obvious example, in slow motion no less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis&t=70s
Last edited by oragami_itto on Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby Steve James on Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:20 am

Here's an example of Sun's style with the follow step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AuGupAIUds

Fwiw, I think a follow step can be used for any style of tjq. At least in the sense that the feet do have to come closer or pass each other to step. Anyway, I think understanding the way Sun style is applied (that distinguishes it from Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc) lies somewhere in the way it utilizes the follow step.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 20235
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby Bao on Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:39 am

Rhen wrote:In higher stances like Sun taijiquan the power needs to be delivered with a follow-up step similar to a western boxer who pivots on ball of foot (not heel).


I don't think you must do like this. You can have a stationary posture, stand pretty straight and tall, and still deliver good power. It's more about how good your rooting and sinking skills are, and if you are good at this, the actual height of the stances matter very little. But the follow step is certainly a good way to learn how to deliver power while the whole body is in movement, like when walking or transition between postures.

The method is about shifting the weight directly into the foot. There is no gradual weight transfer. In Sun and Wu (aka Hao) when you put the heel down, all of the weight goes directly into the center of the foot, from 0% weight to 100% weight. I actually like the Tai Chi method better than Xingyi, because in Xingyi, you mostly keep your center straight and move straight forward in a line. But in Sun and Wu Tai Chi, you twist and turn the waist a lot at the same time as you transfer the weight. So you need to separate the upper body to the lower body in a very clear manner, and really need to make sure your weight goes straight down. This is a bit harder, but you will get a better sense of how your balance work while transferring the weight. And you will develop a more flexible way of deliver power, though it should take a longer time to develop a strong power generation. So it's a little bit different than XY.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8064
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby Bob on Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:22 am

Not sure if this is the half step/follow up being discussed but the Yang Style (as differentiated from Yang lineages) I practice uses what here is termed half step but leads the movement along with the proper alignment with the waist. You can see it in the movements in the clip below (32 posture of Yang style taijiquan taught by Liu Yunqiao):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5eoDPBwug0

Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3287
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:08 pm

Bob wrote:Not sure if this is the half step/follow up being discussed but the Yang Style (as differentiated from Yang lineages) I practice uses what here is termed half step but leads the movement along with the proper alignment with the waist. You can see it in the movements in the clip below (32 posture of Yang style taijiquan taught by Liu Yunqiao):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5eoDPBwug0



I learned that stepping method as a "centering step".
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:34 pm

GrahamB wrote:Hi Rhen,

This is the bit with Brush Knee I was describing in the podcast:

https://i.ibb.co/pzqjn4p/Screenshot-202 ... -42-29.png

In our version quite a lot of the "follow steps" are not done on power delivery, but on the move before the power delivery. As you can see the "push" bit of the Brush knee is delivered in a bow stance, but there's a "feet together" bit before it.

That just probably makes everything more confusing, I know :)

(There can be differences in mechanics/timing between pushing and striking.)

In MMA, "follow steps" can create momentum and power to a full step strike/push:

1. Throw left distraction jab—leave extended to block opponent's vision and control the centerline. Opponent believes I am fully extended and out of range, distance deception.
2. Step forward with right rear foot (hidden step) to meet left front foot (feet together), beginning of pendulum step.
3. Replace left foot with right foot by shuffling or skipping, using that momentum to land left front foot (end of pendulum step) and punch. Momentum from pendulum step adds power.

oragami_itto wrote:The T. T. Liang 150 posture form has stealing steps in the final grasp sparrows tail. As Graham notes they're done on the setup before power delivery.

As the waist turns to the left after ward off right the left foot comes to center. As the waist turns to the right the right foot steps out into the bow stance.

You can see Cheng man ching do something similar in his push hands demo films right before he launches his students.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis

This is probably the clearest and most obvious example, in slow motion no less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis&t=70s

At 2:07, CMC's shuffle step closes distance and adds power to push.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2459
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:00 pm

TT Liangs 150 is the San shou plus Ta Lu and pushing and has follow step all the way through
Our 108 has follow steps in GST
We also have a 300 step form that is all follow step
Play the Pi pa is a good example of follow step
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4055
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:05 pm

wayne hansen wrote:TT Liangs 150 is the San shou plus Ta Lu and pushing and has follow step all the way through


The 150 is just the yang 108 counted differently with a few extra moves in it. We only practiced it with the "active steps" in the last GST. I've never seen a recording of him doing the active steps at any place in the form.

HOWEVER, his method does advocate for using a variety of stepping methods so I would not say it is incorrect to use them all the way through.

His "san shou" was the two person form and the Ta Lu was a separate exercise, they are COMPLETELY different than his long form.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby denchen on Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:07 pm

This movement is developed in the (Chen) silk reeling I've been taught, stepping to fajin with rear leg follow up.
Often preceded by a rollback/ step back, as in form eg six sealing and four closing.
denchen
Santi
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:45 am

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby Rhen on Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:52 pm

the step I'm talking about is here. at 2:11, but the better one is at 3:30 where there is a step up, then push.

Note that zhang Qilin was also a teacher of Cheng Man Ching.

Yangjia Michuan taijiquan from Zhang Qilin (learned from Yang Jianhou but had to be listed as a Yang chengfu disciple) has a follow-up step like Sun Taijiquan.

His disciple Wang Yien-Nian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YyaHhckFJk
Rhen
Anjing
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:20 am

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:51 pm

The TT Liang form I was referring to is the one in the book
Two person dance by Jonathan Russell
It is as I said San shou,Ta Lu and various pushing exercises
I learnt to do San shou in a way that if the partner does not do a move correctly you go into Ta Lu or pushing and come back to the form in the same place it broke down
TT Seems to have made it into a formalised set
Last edited by wayne hansen on Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4055
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Half step/follow-up in taijiquan

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:15 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The TT Liang form I was referring to is the one in the book
Two person dance by Jonathan Russell
It is as I said San shou,Ta Lu and various pushing exercises
I learnt to do San shou in a way that if the partner does not do a move correctly you go into Ta Lu or pushing and come back to the form in the same place it broke down


Okay, I confess that I do not know the details of the San shou form but I have seen it many times. I do know the Ta Lu and that is definitely part of it.

What I am saying is that what is commonly referred to as his 150 posture form is not that. It is the single person Yang family 108 form numbered slightly differently, with a few moves added, each movement broken into an even number of beats. If you were to take an active step with each movement in every GST you would need a very long practice space.

It's documented in Gordon Muir's book "Yang Style Traditional Long Form T'ai Chi Ch'uan As Taught by Master T. T. Liang". Also in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIdU5ZBwLAk

ALTHOUGH, I do own that book and checked and the none of the GST are described as using active steps. Only the "step forward to ward off right" that starts it is present in the final GST. In Gordon's introduction he says he learned the form in Liang's basement in Minnesota. What I learned from Liang's students was to adapt the footwork to the space available. Perhaps he didn't learn the active step GST due to space constraints?

Or it could also be that he didn't teach it with the active step and that is an innovation of my teacher to include the practice at that point in the form. Also, he doesn't use it in any of the film I have access to currently. Liang was CMC's disciple and I have never seen anyone else claiming that lineage use the active step. As I mentioned we were encouraged to experiment with footwork at a certain level of progress.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

cron