Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby chinwoo1956 on Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:11 am

Hi

It seems quite a common practice in Chinese Martial Arts, could you please discuss and outline your styles teaching
and training methods and what martial product, skill can you achieve form it practice.
chinwoo1956
Mingjing
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby Rhen on Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:27 am

This is a neigong thing and not really that martial. Somehow, somewhere taoist neigong crept into Taijiquan and people are fooled now. The real power development comes from training hard, stance work, partner hit and condition training, etc. Hard qigong and weigong training like power lifts, probably has way more internal power development than standing or sitting. I do think it is important to sink qi and develop Dan tien for Tai Chi folks. I guess you can take strikes to the stomach, but I hear those people did other things and not pure Tai Chi.
Rhen
Anjing
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:20 am

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:42 am

Most people are top heavy, they are unstable in the legs and use voluntary and involuntary shiftings in the upper body to control the balance of the feet and the whole body. But if you relax the upper body to achieve a deeper, lower breath, and drop the strength down to the legs (which is really what "sinking the qi" is about) your upper body will be light, and instead, by this you will be able to control your whole balance with your legs. You will achieve a whole other stability and be able to control your movements and footwork better, and without the common person's unbalanced clumsiness interfering as you move. So it's a highly practical thing. ;)
Last edited by Bao on Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby robert on Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:08 pm

chinwoo1956 wrote:It seems quite a common practice in Chinese Martial Arts, could you please discuss

YCF writes it up quite well in his training manual Methods of Applying Taijiquan discussing the first posture of the Yang long form - beginning posture/preparation.

This is Taiji Boxing’s opening posture, the shape you assume in preparation for movement. While standing stably, the head should be held erect, drawn in and pressed up, the gaze straight ahead. The chest is slightly hollowed and the back pulled up. There must be no leaning forward or back. The shoulders sink, the elbows slightly sit, and the hands hang with fingers forward and palms down. The waist and hips loosen, and the feet are shoulder width apart. Spirit is now consolidated within and energy is sinking to the elixir field. Let it happen naturally, for you cannot make it happen. I preserve my stillness to await the opponent’s movement. However, people typically are liable to neglect this posture, ignorant in particular that regardless of whatever technique is being practiced or applied, none of them can be disassociated from this one. I hope the reader or student will give it first priority and pay attention to it.


You need to train so you have the correct posture/alignment and state of the body as outlined above. As YCF writes it happens naturally you cannot make it happen. When you do what is listed correctly the qi will sink to the dantian. Once students' qi sinks to the dantian and they understand what it means some teachers may say sink qi to dantian as shorthand for the list of attributes that are required to achieve it.

chinwoo1956 wrote:outline your styles teaching and training methods

Traditionally in taijiquan the form is used to train this. Today standing and silk reeling exercises are used as well.

chinwoo1956 wrote:what martial product, skill can you achieve form it practice.

If the qi sinks to the dantian, if you have the correct posture/alignment and body state, your body will be somewhat connected. You will have a minimal level of peng jin and chansi jin. These qualities allow you to listen to your opponent as well as transfer strength/force from the legs and waist into your opponent. That is strike, kick, throw, and so on. This is a foot in the door level. Once the qi sinks to the dantian a lot of training is still required. My opinion.
Last edited by robert on Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby GrahamB on Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:15 pm

A lot of people say that you need to develop a dantien - i.e it's not something that exists without the effort of creating it. Which begs the question - can you sink the qi to something that doesn't exist yet?
I could be wrong.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12790
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:16 pm

GrahamB wrote:A lot of people say that you need to develop a dantien - i.e it's not something that exists without the effort of creating it. Which begs the question - can you sink the qi to something that doesn't exist yet?

Sure. Why not? It's no more untenable than being told to believe that I can somehow transmit a disease I don't have to other people who have already been vaccinated for it. ::) ;D
Last edited by Doc Stier on Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5081
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:53 pm

Have no idea what people mean by having to develop a dantian before they can have one. I don't think they have any knowledge about the theory. Every single classical definition say that a certain point on the normal human body is meant by dantian. How could a physical area be missing? That you need to use it or activate it in a certain way is another thing. But they (there are three different Dantian) are still there and everyone has them.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8055
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:08 pm

Dantien is like a bicep. Everybody has one but some are more developed.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2238
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby yeniseri on Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:30 pm

Forget about dantien (qihai ??? ) sinking qi training methods.
If we follow the 10 esentials of taijiquan training, everything will take care of themselves, whether training martial, yangsheng or just playing the fool with tai chi chuan, showing off with qi stuff or otherwise.
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
yeniseri
Wuji
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: USA

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby GrahamB on Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:49 pm

yeniseri wrote:Forget about dantien (qihai ??? ) sinking qi training methods.
If we follow the 10 esentials of taijiquan training, everything will take care of themselves, whether training martial, yangsheng or just playing the fool with tai chi chuan, showing off with qi stuff or otherwise.


Yang Cheng-Fu's 10 essentials of Tai Chi Chuan:

2. Hold in the Chest and Slightly Round The Back

The phrase ‘hold in the chest’ means the chest is slightly reserved inward, which causes the chi to sink to the dantian. The chest must not be puffed out; if you do so then the chi is blocked in the chest region. The upper body becomes heavy and the lower body light, and it will become easy for the heels to float upward. ‘Slightly round the back’ makes the chi stick to the back. If you are able to hold in the chest then you will naturally be able to slightly round the back. If you can slightly round the back, then you will be able to emit strength from the spine, which others cannot oppose.
I could be wrong.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12790
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby GrahamB on Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:52 pm

Bao wrote:Have no idea what people mean by having to develop a dantian before they can have one. I don't think they have any knowledge about the theory. Every single classical definition say that a certain point on the normal human body is meant by dantian. How could a physical area be missing? That you need to use it or activate it in a certain way is another thing. But they (there are three different Dantian) are still there and everyone has them.


There are certainly plenty of older martial artists who can move a kind of ball of muscle or 'stuff' around their lower abdomen - a bit like the scene in Alien. This would be the developed dantien, attributed to years of training. I'm pretty sure there are videos on Youtube of such things.

I'm not making a judgement on it either way.
I could be wrong.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12790
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby GrahamB on Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:56 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
GrahamB wrote:A lot of people say that you need to develop a dantien - i.e it's not something that exists without the effort of creating it. Which begs the question - can you sink the qi to something that doesn't exist yet?

Sure. Why not? It's no less improbable than believing that you can somehow transmit a disease you don't have to people who have already been vaccinated for it. ::) ;D


I don't know what any of this has to do with vaccines.

If you'd like some good info on vaccines, written for the lay person and without woo woo nonsense, then I'd recommend this:
https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2021/0 ... id-column/

8. So, you’re vaccinated? First of all, a sincere, heart-felt thank you! But you may now ask, so why do I again need to wear a mask? We talked about disease, hospitalizations and death above, but what about infections themselves? The vaccines are now estimated to provide a 3-times reduction in infection. For reasons that I tried to make clear above, it isn’t surprising that the vaccine is less effective at preventing infection vs. preventing disease. We are indeed seeing detectable virus, at high levels, in asymptomatic, vaccinated persons when we test them prior to procedures, etc. We have a few that are mildly symptomatic, too.

While we now understand that the virus fades from the back of the throat pretty quickly in a vaccinated person, we also know that an infected, vaccinated person can transmit this very infectious virus to others for at least a couple of days. So, as before, you are being asked to wear a mask to primarily protect others.

We need you again to interrupt the transmission cycle of the virus, as you don’t know when you might be infectious. The vaccine alone cannot interrupt this cycle when there is a lot of virus in the community within unprotected persons.
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I could be wrong.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12790
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby wiesiek on Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:08 am

Nobody mention it yet: Basic method for developing DT is simply breathing exercise with focus in the DT point (area).

side virus note:
recent study shows,that each of 1sq. m, of earth surface is feeding by couple of millions viruses a day.
They are flying with the winds all the time, some of them came from outer space.
Between them, you can find corona as well for sure.
Then mask, for now end forever....
`cmon
we are livin` with them from the very begging.
Joyful Fruits of the Live
wiesiek
Wuji
 
Posts: 4165
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:38 am
Location: krakow

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby Trip on Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:39 am

GrahamB wrote:There are certainly plenty of older martial artists who can move a kind of ball of muscle or 'stuff' around their lower abdomen...

I'm not making a judgement on it either way.


There’s sinking the Qi to the Dantian
And there’s Dantian rotations

Traditional Yang Style sinks the Qi to the Dantian
But does not Rotate the Dantian

But I'm sure there's some Yang stylist who personally might put Dantian rotations in their Yang style.
Last edited by Trip on Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
Trip
Wuji
 
Posts: 633
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:40 pm

Re: Sinking the Qi to the Dan Tien Training Methods

Postby Rhen on Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:01 am

Western medicine recognizes the importance of lower diaphragm breathing to calm mind, relax, etc.

I tell students: "gently exhale out the mouth without force and without sound, abdomen contracts, diaprhagm lifts"
"inahle, gently through the nose, without force, without sound, abdomen expands, diaphragm sinks down."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAkjx25o4eI

Last edited by Rhen on Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rhen
Anjing
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 9:20 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests