Neigong and Taijiquan?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby robert on Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:00 am

It's interesting that this was a post by Rhen.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29082&sid=e7de785050577c5ff423a43564090bd5#p501931

The post links to a paper by CP Ong and the abstract says ... The paper puts forth the proposition that the manifestation of Qi in Taijiquan is primarily the cognitive perception of fascial tension in the functional efficacy of bipedal balance for performance.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby everything on Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:03 am

smh
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:05 pm

robert wrote:It's interesting that this was a post by Rhen.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29082&sid=e7de785050577c5ff423a43564090bd5#p501931

The post links to a paper by CP Ong and the abstract says ... The paper puts forth the proposition that the manifestation of Qi in Taijiquan is primarily the cognitive perception of fascial tension in the functional efficacy of bipedal balance for performance.

Well, that certainly puts my mind at ease. I only regret that I have apparently had the wrong perception of chi for more than half a century prior to today. ::)
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby everything on Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:56 pm

surely something should be viewable (by human eyes) to be considered real, right?

way on a tangent, newton said there is gravity. einstein, however, says large masses bend space-time. how can we, as physics idiots understand that in some way? one way is to realize one of the applications affects us every day: the GPS satellites that we use for smartphone map apps have to adjust their clocks due to the spacetime curvature. they have to adjust in both directions 1. because they are moving so fast, their clocks go a little slower 2. because they encounter 4x weaker gravity (less spacetime curvature), they are going a little faster. engineers have to make adjustments otherwise your maps app would be way off within a couple of minutes. .... this is all invisible to the human eye but it's reality that's useful.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby robert on Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:29 pm

I don't read or write Chinese so I tend to question how accurate translations of Chinese texts are. Here is a link to a paper by Donald Kendall that questions Georges Soulié de Morant's translations about TCM.

Numerous lay and medical practitioners of Chinese needling therapy (acupuncture)
rely on the Western metaphysical construct of energy and blood circulation by meridians/
channels. This scheme was put forth by Georges Soulié de Morant in 1939 in his
rendering of the Chinese vessel theory of cardiovascular circulation of vital substances.
This idea is contrary to the historic facts of Chinese medicine, as well as to known anatomy
and physiology. Soulié de Morant interpreted the Chinese character “qi” (air and
vapor) as “vital energy” and “jing” (longitudinal) as “meridians.” He believed meridians
were: “an additional circulatory system having no relation to the nervous, circulatory,
or lymphatic systems.” Later in his life, Soulié de Morant concluded that the vascular
system actually supplied blood and energy to all the body cells. Converting potential
energy sources to “vital energy” was thought to be in the realm of metaphysics. It has
been known for some time that energy production within the cells involves oxidation
of glucose to convert ADP to ATP which then fuels cellular processes. The energy-meridian
misconceptions need to be replaced with physiologically correct understanding
to best serve public interests and to provide a solid basis for valid research.


Soulié de Morant’s main problem was his representation of qi (氣) as “energy” for “lack of a better word” [18,21, p.46]. Almost of the all misunderstanding about Chinese medicine revolves around the ubiquitous use of this character qi to mean energy. This misconception continues to be used despite the historical facts as previously noted herein. Unschuld [5,9] notes that: “the core Chinese concept of qi bears no resemblance to the Western concept of ‘energy’.” Schnorrenberger [22] also notes that qi: “is certainly not equivalent to the Western term ‘energy’.” Soulié de Morant expected that his energy would somehow be revealed by science. His notion of energy came from the belief that qi was identical to the Hindu concept of prana and different
from nervous flux [18; 21, pp. xii, 46]. He considered prana to mean “vital energy” and supposed that this idea was introduced into China along with Buddhism from the 3rd and 4th centuries A.D.” [18, 21, p.71]. Contrary to Soulié de Morant’s assumption, the Chinese theory on the cardiovascular circulation of air and blood was established at least 600–700 or more years before the introduction of Buddhism into China.


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228504669_Energy_-_Meridian_misconceptions_of_Chinese_medicine

FWIW.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby everything on Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:39 am

I refer you to my comment on newtonian physics vs. einstein's relativity again.

people think they get physics. until then they realize their physics wasn't quite correct.

layperson pov on the ultimate physics (when one equation rules them all): everything is about energy.

but sure, let's keep thinking it's all about fascia and shit we can see and touch. smdh.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby robert on Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:25 am

I like what Feynman has to say about energy.

4–1What is energy?
In this chapter, we begin our more detailed study of the different aspects of physics, having finished our description of things in general. To illustrate the ideas and the kind of reasoning that might be used in theoretical physics, we shall now examine one of the most basic laws of physics, the conservation of energy.
There is a fact, or if you wish, a law, governing all natural phenomena that are known to date. There is no known exception to this law—it is exact so far as we know. The law is called the conservation of energy. It states that there is a certain quantity, which we call energy, that does not change in the manifold changes which nature undergoes. That is a most abstract idea, because it is a mathematical principle; it says that there is a numerical quantity which does not change when something happens. It is not a description of a mechanism, or anything concrete; it is just a strange fact that we can calculate some number and when we finish watching nature go through her tricks and calculate the number again, it is the same. (Something like the bishop on a red square, and after a number of moves—details unknown—it is still on some red square. It is a law of this nature.) Since it is an abstract idea, we shall illustrate the meaning of it by an analogy.


It is important to realize that in physics today, we have no knowledge of what energy is. We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount. It is not that way. However, there are formulas for calculating some numerical quantity, and when we add it all together it gives “28”—always the same number. It is an abstract thing in that it does not tell us the mechanism or the reasons for the various formulas.


https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_04.html

FWIW.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby everything on Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:48 pm

Great quotes.

It seems weird because we have an every day understanding.

I feel energized or tired. I add fuel to my car and it can produce motion.

Yet we don’t understand “internal” and “Qi”, and scientists can’t define “energy”.

We seem to know very little even when the actor who played Captain Kirk can actually go to space.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby robert on Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:44 am

everything wrote:It seems weird because we have an every day understanding.

I feel energized or tired. I add fuel to my car and it can produce motion.

Yet we don’t understand “internal” and “Qi”, and scientists can’t define “energy”.

There's a difference between something concrete and an abstraction. As Feynman points out energy is an abstraction. If you point to types of energy or energy sources physics has a fair amount to say about them. Fossil fuels, electricity, light, heat, and so on. I think qi is an abstraction or concept as well. Qi in fengshui is different than qi in philosophy, or TCM or MAs. When I use online translation SW qi is often translated as gas. An online dictionary has - gas / air / smell / weather / to make angry / to annoy / to get angry / vital energy. Joseph Adler translates qi as psycho-physical stuff.

Adler wrote:The concepts of qi and yin-yang are well-known enough not to require much explanation here. Suffice it to say that qi, or psycho-physical stuff, is the substance of which all existing phenomena are constituted, including all the phases of matter, energy, mind (xin) and even the various forms of spirit (shen). The term is used in both a general sense, referring to the primordial stuff of which all things are composed, and more specific senses. For example, Zhu Xi uses both general and specific senses in one sentence, in reference to the human body: "The pure qi is qi [here meaning something like "breath"]; the turbid qi is matter (zhi)."(8) It is convenient, although over-simplified, to think of qi as a fundamental vapor that can condense into solid matter and disperse into finer and finer forms. It is much like the aer of the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Anaximenes, who claimed that it (like qi) was the fundamental substance or nature (physis) of all things.(9)


Looking at Chinese qi is usually used in context or with an adjective, but westerners on the web often seem to discuss qi without real context. My opinion.

everything wrote:We seem to know very little even when the actor who played Captain Kirk can actually go to space.

Not only commercial space travel, but space tourism - that's great!
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby everything on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:41 pm

I think they didn’t have a conception of EMR.

Now we know visible (to humans) light is in certain frequencies.

UV light is not visible to us, but is concretely damaging (sunburn…cancer, etc).

They know it has more effect on moving electrons to the point of damaging DNA.

Physics wants to look at a sub atomic level. Eventually there is some unified theory.

Then do we understand things like Qi? I guess not. But maybe we understand energy in some way. I think humans working with Qi must be some tiny subset of whatever all that is.

Psycho-physical as well. We have some chemical process, some thought, it translates to electrical impulses. When we are dead, we don’t have those. And we don’t have Qi. It seems related but we don’t have the theory or the instruments.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:18 pm

Gives a good over view of what, why and how of inner practices.
Address some of the questions asked here. outlines TCM theory and thought
regarding "qi" " dantien" ect....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQyMVtuNYKI


subtitles in English...
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby everything on Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:50 am

excellent, thanks a lot. started watching it, but will finish later...
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Rhen on Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:51 am

I keep seeing morons of the Taiji community post garbage like this: Taiji, an art of harmonizing Shen, Yi and Qi

Sad that they don't understand Shen , qi, and Jing. If they understand Shen, there would be no need to bring up Yi. Shen is not separated from yi, hun, po, zhi...total of 5.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:57 am

Charming as ever, Rhen.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Quigga on Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:44 am

Hey Rhen, I can't wait to hear your explanation of the 5 mental functions, their associations with physical organs and emotions and WHY they're connected, along with pitfalls and traps that one might encounter. Also would you mind explaining what part of consciousness is controlled by which function, how it relates to the outside world and how it can be cultivated. Are there perhaps Buddhist or Confucian influences in explaining those mechanisms? Heart awareness/consciousness is one of the hardest functions to develop IMO. Also would you mind to explain how each function blossoms into the next via the creative cycle and how it's controlled via the destructive cycle. And where should one start their training in these? And which should come first? What lessons are contained in each function? God, I really dislike your way of presenting yourself. Humility wasn't part of your curriculum, was it? I'd be THRILLED if you would answer me.

Also how does each function work martially. What's their purpose in combat. What's their purpose in orchestrating and organizing human livelihood and them living amongst fellow humans. How does each function need to be reigned in and nurtured to facilitate optimal spiritual growth for yourself and all of your fellow human beings.

What is your goal - stay human or become realized human - Rhen to Zhen Rhen. The way you talk doesn't reflect on you in a good way. And if you want to talk that way, at least post some proof of your accomplishments in video Format, either solo or partner or group practice. Maybe I missed it. I don't think so though.

At least your post kindled my passion again.
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