Neigong and Taijiquan?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Rhen on Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:47 am

Zhao Bichen writes:
"I urge people not to believe in heretics and imposters who know nothing about alchemy but pose as competent masters, their so-called teachings have nothing to do with the doctrine of cultivation of essential nature and eternal life because their sole aim is to make a living and so they deceive and mislead their pupils who will pass their lifetime aimlessly without achieving any results" 
and
"Seek competent teachers, you cannot produce the alchemical agents by yourself. If not well versed in the training, you will not know what to do when you encounter the mechanisms of creativity and make you will make wrong assumptions of knowing what you do not really know"
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Quigga on Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:31 am

Yes, sure, my sole aim is to make a living and I go to great lengths to corrupt my pupils. Apparently if it smells like shit it more than likely is, in fact, shit. Anything you want to write coming from your own feather?
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Rhen on Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:43 am

Quigga wrote: Anything you want to write coming from your own feather?

i said it earlier in the thread:

"In reality there is no dan tien, only lower diaphragm breathing.
there is no Du or Ren channel, only the spinal cord (cerebral spinal fluid, motor and sensory nerves) and the esophagus that goes down.
while breathing with lower diaphragm can generate heat which is a sign, and generation of saliva which is another sign.
the best sign comes from stillness of body where the mind gets quiet and you lose all sense of self and even having a body."
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:25 am

There is the enteric nervous system.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Quigga on Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:48 am

Rhen wrote:
Quigga wrote: Anything you want to write coming from your own feather?

i said it earlier in the thread:

"In reality there is no dan tien, only lower diaphragm breathing.
there is no Du or Ren channel, only the spinal cord (cerebral spinal fluid, motor and sensory nerves) and the esophagus that goes down.
while breathing with lower diaphragm can generate heat which is a sign, and generation of saliva which is another sign.
the best sign comes from stillness of body where the mind gets quiet and you lose all sense of self and even having a body."


I once, too, tried to boil down all of the knowledge I could find to one coherent system - but cut off many important side pieces and led myself astray. While I value the simplicity of the methodology you express in your post - and this is not supposed to be an attack - I can't recommend holding onto it as the final version. I can lose my sense of self or sense of body self by overdosing on heroin and alcohol ;D Or many other ways. To make this temporary state a sign of permanent success is a grave error. You will have to find your own inspiration to go beyond what you call truth. What you deem to be real and truthful. Or see for yourself how far you'll make it by thinking - 'If I reduce all of it to the physical, surely I'll get it right.' Maybe start by honestly observing how many different internal qualities you can feel and in which intensity - for example, how many different organ energies can you feel in your lower dantian... Yes, the whole body can be or is dantian as well, you won't tell me anything new if you mention that, trust me ::) Have you played with Lego or Bionicles in the past or as a kid? The fancier the small pieces were, the more epic the finished piece was, if I remember correctly :) Anyway, it's not my job or anyone else's on here to guide unwilling persons forward on their journey. It'll only make them feel patronised and demeaned. You do you :) The benefit of your mode of being is not having to move forward in evolution or questioning yourself or your competence - allwoing you to stick your finger up your arse and sit on your hand. I hope your enjoy your comfort and wish you all the best in your future endeavours. Maybe some day my dear sire will find an opportunity that he deems is fit to broaden his horizons. Cheerioh ;D
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:18 am

Rhen wrote:
Quigga wrote: Anything you want to write coming from your own feather?

i said it earlier in the thread:

"In reality there is no dan tien, only lower diaphragm breathing.
there is no Du or Ren channel, only the spinal cord (cerebral spinal fluid, motor and sensory nerves) and the esophagus that goes down.
while breathing with lower diaphragm can generate heat which is a sign, and generation of saliva which is another sign.
the best sign comes from stillness of body where the mind gets quiet and you lose all sense of self and even having a body."

Oof! :o ::)
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby everything on Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:38 pm

If I reduce all of it to the physical, surely I'll get it right.'


To study the physical world, you should try to understand physics and its "laws" which govern the physical world. But it's not that simple...in Newtonian physics, we thought the physical world reduces to particles and waves. Now we know particles (fundamental particles) are actually waves. Basically everything is a wave. As some kind of "physics metaphor", that one seems far more helpful.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Quigga on Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:06 pm

Song said: “Breathing is divided into internal and external, but in boxing arts there’s no distinction between internal and external. If you are good at nurturing energy, then it’s internal. If you’re not good at nurturing energy, then it’s external. Consider the phrase [Mengzi, chapter 2a] “good at nurturing one’s noble energy”. Surely it reveals the deeper meaning of the internal school. When practicing boxing arts, seek stillness through movement. In meditation arts, seek movement through stillness. Truly there is stillness within movement and movement within stillness, because basically they represent a single essence that cannot be branched off into two. Building on this point, when stillness is at its peak, there is movement, and when movement is at its peak, there is stillness, because movement and stillness are so connected that they generate each other. If movement and stillness were used to make distinction between internal and external, how would this not be a case of miscalculating by an inch and being off by a thousand miles?"

Taken from
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... un-lutang/


Not finished with the text, but I quite like it.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Quigga on Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:12 pm

everything wrote:
If I reduce all of it to the physical, surely I'll get it right.'


To study the physical world, you should try to understand physics and its "laws" which govern the physical world. But it's not that simple...in Newtonian physics, we thought the physical world reduces to particles and waves. Now we know particles (fundamental particles) are actually waves. Basically everything is a wave. As some kind of "physics metaphor", that one seems far more helpful.


Let's ride the big wave together bro and enjoy the kaleidoscope in the middle 8-)

And with yi you can manipulate waves... Magnitude, amplitude, direction, spiralization, expansion, contraction. Mirroring other waves intentionally and actively or passively like tuning forks. Crushing wave, uprooting wave, penetrating wave. The last one is my favorite ;D
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Quigga on Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:30 pm

Taken from the same link:

I said: “The principles of boxing arts and sword arts roughly amount to three:
“1. Above and below coordinate with each other. Hands and feet look after each other. Inside and outside are as one.
“2. Neither reaching nor separating, neither coming away nor crashing in, neither under-involved nor over-involved.
“3. The boxing is without boxing. The intention is without intention. Within no intention is true intention.”

Edit: Now, obviously, as above so below and the attractive fusion of opposites has absolutely nothing to do with internal alchemy and Hermeticism. Cough cough ???
Last edited by Quigga on Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Quigga on Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:38 pm

Come to think of it, Windwalker on here actually talked a lot about waves and their function. He pointed to the same things, pretty much. Grand inclusion, decisive exclusion is nothing but delusion :)
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby wiesiek on Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:03 am

so,
we have to go over those two, to reach the one,
`caue there is no difference when you get there.
You can go from external to internal, or in reverse order, doesn`t matter. It is personal choice, but you have to get both under your belt if you hope to find the one.
What is most important during the way thru?
Harmony and inner peace

edit
oops it was for internal/external thread, but it can go here as well 8-)
Last edited by wiesiek on Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Appledog on Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:40 pm

Rhen wrote:What do you know about Taiji neigong?
It really seems to be imported from Taoist neigong mainly through the Jin shan pai tradition it seems. Zhang Qilin learned from 3rd patriarch of Jin Shan Pai Zou Yifeng. zhang Qilin later taught it to Cheng Man Ching and Wang Yien-nian who both wrote and taught some students.

Not entirely convinced the major styles of Chen, Yang , Wu, Hao, Sun knew this. Seems to be a later picked up and add. Seem like knowing the forms, weapons, push hands, (the martial stuff) was more important.


Nahh that's all BS.

Taiji neigong is mainly a peculiar kind of progression from so-called regular martial arts. I can show you how taiji principles evolved from various existing martial arts. The most interesting fingerprint you will find is the opening sequence and leading into (summarizing) with the end of the first section of the form (which includes 'grasp bird's tail'. Without these movements it can't be tai chi per-se. The question then is how the dichotomy between this first section and the rest of the form plays out, why it is there, and how people came to the conclusions they came to.

Look, personally I know enough original/unique material that I could practice 8 hours a day easy and never repeat the same moves in the same set.

What happens when you try doing something like this is you end up compressing moves and ideas into other moves. Various types of silk reeling is a great beginner's example. Once you can see how various types of silk reeling are really just the same thing but with minor additions such as large or small, up or down, back and forth, in and out, etc. you see how people came to the delineation of positive versus negative circles as a primary distinction. The rest is elementary.

You can figure this stuff out you know, but it takes pursuing this like a career.

[Edit: BTW, I am not talking about you (Rhen) in particular. I mean "you" as in people in general.]

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Last edited by Appledog on Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Appledog on Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:52 pm

Rhen wrote:One thing I've learned about neigong, is not to rely on some of the folks out there if they are not initiated by a Taoist and have met the stages.
Some folks seem to add and take from multiple traditions or not clear on where they learned.

Also there seems to be over emphasis on channels and vessels.

In reality there is no dan tien, only lower diaphragm breathing.
these is no Du or Ren channel, only the spinal cord (cerebral spinal fluid, motor and sensory nerves) and the esophagus that goes down.
while breathing with lower diaphragm can generate heat which is a sign and generation of saliva which is another sign.
the best sign comes from stillness of body where the mind gets quiet and you lose all sense of self and even having a body.


Well to be fair it should be pointed out that this is from the perspective of a particular teaching method.

There "really are" ren and du channels, etc. and I think that is a valid approach too. it depends on your goals. If your goals are more religious, i.e. losing a sense of self or even having a body, this method might help you more.
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Re: Neigong and Taijiquan?

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:26 am

A general observation here, not specifically directed at anyone in this conversation, is simply that personal opinions are many and varied online, yet very few of those who vehemently express their opinions ever validate them live and in person anywhere offline. As a result, all such unvalidated opinions can provide interesting food for thought, but ultimately amount to little more than hypothetical, intellectual conjecture. Sigh! ::)
Last edited by Doc Stier on Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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