the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

What do you know about Taiji neigong?
It really seems to be imported from Taoist neigong mainly through the Jin shan pai tradition it seems. Zhang Qilin learned from 3rd patriarch of Jin Shan Pai Zou Yifeng. zhang Qilin later taught it to Cheng Man Ching and Wang Yien-nian who both wrote and taught some students.

Not entirely convinced the major styles of Chen, Yang , Wu, Hao, Sun knew this. Seems to be a later picked up and add. Seem like knowing the forms, weapons, push hands, (the martial stuff) was more important.

If you are interested in Taiji and Neigong trained together you should read more about Chen Style Hunyuan Taijiquan. Feng Zhiqiang was a student of Chen Fa Ke as well as a student of Hu Yaozhen. Feng basically integrated both the Neigong he learned from Hu with the Taiji he learned from Chen.

MiaoZhen wrote:If you are interested in Taiji and Neigong trained together you should read more about Chen Style Hunyuan Taijiquan. Feng Zhiqiang was a student of Chen Fa Ke as well as a student of Hu Yaozhen. Feng basically integrated both the Neigong he learned from Hu with the Taiji he learned from Chen.

thank You MiaoZhen.

yes, that is good information. As a matter of fact Hu Yaozhen was apparently a student of Zhang Qilin and Jin shan pai as well along with a few other teachers (Xinyi Liu Hui). He is known as one of the pioneers where the term "Qigong" was coined. Hu had the first Qigong clinic in Beijing, taught Wuji acupuncture and martial arts. Sadly he was a victim of the Cultural Revolution for teaching the old ways and was forced in public to wear a dunce hat, etc. and will killed. Some say this may have been Zhang Qilin's fate as well, but not certain as most say he went to the mountain. Hunyuan Qigong is very good. Most neigong is sitting and requires hours of sitting. Jinshan pai has roots in Longmen pai as far as I understand and they sit for 4 hours daily at minimum. I think standing was later added or done, but only know that it requires a clear understanding of Shao Choutien (small orbit circulation) which people make out to be super esoteric and complicated which it is not if you put reasonable time into it, not force anything and be observant. A person who has reached the stages can take you there.

If you consider taiji to be an internal practice, i.e. neijia, then by definition neigong should be integrated everywhere. If you're talking about a separate, discrete set of practices, then you really would have to look at it on an individual lineage basis. I don't think you can generalize by "taiji" or even by any given sub-style. I know of at least a couple of instances where the specific neigong/qigong exercises are part of what's reserved for indoor students. From what I've learned, it seems like the quality of the practice is different, but the function seems to be just like any other jibengong in terms of building specific useful body skills. I imagine that may vary a lot from one lineage to another, though.

Recently watch Ray Haywards videos and really like how he explains things and was approachable when emailing him. Most of it aligns with what my teacher has said. Ray also shares two version Wai Lun Choi's version and I think T.T. Liang's/Wang yien-Nien version.

The last video is how to apply it in Taijiquan either as stand by holding posture in the form, or moving through the form. I do like he says natural and your energy is your true teacher not him.

In regards to direction of the xiao chou tien he gives a few version, but I understand up the Ren channel and down the spine Du channel is more for women, unless they are post menopause they can circulate up the Du and down the Ren channels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-yKAFFB9yo&t=169s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP9Ois-d4BQ&t=76s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQMMYDH-w20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BezLWvfcooI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOWPN5Ae1hU&t=5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6dTwNV0JMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy0UDVIEGLI

reading what Sun says in all his intros (brennan translations to English), he seems to put large emphasis on the basic neigong roots, even though presumably martial techniques are the main thing of all martial arts (otherwise he'd just be doing whatever neigong non-martial monks did, wouldn't he?). more broadly, why would he call it "neijia" if neigong weren't a key aspect? otherwise, may as well just have whatever name/style. perhaps "spear fist" would be a good name. "chen fist" another one. "circular quan" maybe a third.

how could it possibly be that anyone (after Sun) would then feel a need to "add" neigong to neijia? Almost by definition that doesn't make sense. I want to add "internal gong" to "internal arts" .... unless they felt their art was "external" and could stand to have "internal".

The Jinshan Pai mentioned in the OP is a lineage of Daoist neigong/internal alchemy that is an offshoot of the Longmen. It's not "taiji neigong" per se, although some serious students in Wang Yennien's Yangjia Michuan lineage practice it--but it's not a part of the taiji system itself, not claimed to have anything to do with the Yang family, etc. Just a Daoist lineage that some martial artists also happened to be a part of. As far as I'm aware Cheng Manching studied tuishou with Zhang Qinlin and was never initiated into the Jinshan Pai.

Rhen wrote:Hu had the first Qigong clinic in Beijing, taught Wuji acupuncture and martial arts.

What is Wuji acupuncture?

Taijiquan is a type of daoyin and daoyin is neigong. If your taijiquan has the correct body mechanics you're also doing daoyin. If you do taijiquan correctly you don't need what's shown in Ray's videos. In the 3rd video Ray says there are different ways to do this. He doesn't mention daoyin or taijiquan which seem much easier to me, but you need a good instructor. You don't need all the breathing techniques.

Here is a video of CXW going through a silk reeling exercise. At 7:27 he discusses how qi circulates through the body - 1 qi from fingers go to waist, side. 2 Continue to dantian. 3 From behind to your back. 4 From back to shoulder, elbow, fingers.

In 3 hour workshops he went into more detail. Once you learn how to do this things like the microcosmic orbit are fairly trivial. With taijiquan it usually takes years of training to learn to circulate the qi.

https://youtu.be/zc8FgM7Q3r4?t=445

Doc Stier wrote:

Rhen wrote:Hu had the first Qigong clinic in Beijing, taught Wuji acupuncture and martial arts.

What is Wuji acupuncture?

Yaron Siedman knows more about it, he is a representative for info on Hu Yaozhen and Feng zhiqian Hun Yuan info. https://youtu.be/8aZN7UoO_yk

wuchan wrote:The Jinshan Pai mentioned in the OP is a lineage of Daoist neigong/internal alchemy that is an offshoot of the Longmen. It's not "taiji neigong" per se, although some serious students in Wang Yennien's Yangjia Michuan lineage practice it--but it's not a part of the taiji system itself, not claimed to have anything to do with the Yang family, etc. Just a Daoist lineage that some martial artists also happened to be a part of. As far as I'm aware Cheng Manching studied tuishou with Zhang Qinlin and was never initiated into the Jinshan Pai.

cheng man ching was a student of Zhang Qilin in Neigong as well, but was not initiated into Jian Shan Pai. Story goes, Yang chengfu asked zhang qilin to teach some of the students some neigong in 1935 when he was sick. YCF later died in early 1936.

robert wrote:Taijiquan is a type of daoyin and daoyin is neigong. If your taijiquan has the correct body mechanics you're also doing daoyin. If you do taijiquan correctly you don't need what's shown in Ray's videos. In the 3rd video Ray says there are different ways to do this. He doesn't mention daoyin or taijiquan which seem much easier to me, but you need a good instructor. You don't need all the breathing techniques.

Here is a video of CXW going through a silk reeling exercise. At 7:27 he discusses how qi circulates through the body - 1 qi from fingers go to waist, side. 2 Continue to dantian. 3 From behind to your back. 4 From back to shoulder, elbow, fingers.

In 3 hour workshops he went into more detail. Once you learn how to do this things like the microcosmic orbit are fairly trivial. With taijiquan it usually takes years of training to learn to circulate the qi.

https://youtu.be/zc8FgM7Q3r4?t=445

Excellent! It is rare for the many to see this intersection of health, wellness and longevity that few understand, Even this stupid fool (myself) is amazed at how the simply is made complicated by doing the needful in neigong practice.
Not everything is done but all is accomplished. Paraphrasing only

Short answer: Taijiquan is neigong.

I have learned thru two schools
The Wu of Chen tin hung who taught the 24 noi gung
The CMC of Yeap Sui ting who taught noi gung
I don’t know if it came directly from CMC but it was there and often demonstrated by his students

Watching videos and reading books of the Yang family they don't talk much about qi circulation, but they teach proper body mechanics so their students are circulating qi whether they know it or not. Zheng Manqing discusses it and writes about it. Here is a video where he talks about qi circulation. At the beginning he says "In taijiquan it depends on this ..." and around 1:16 he says -

When we talk about taijiquan today, the highest form, when it reaches the ultimate it reaches here, then, from that point on the person can use any part of their body, when his mind is at a certain place the qi just follows.

Neigong is very important if you have lots of books and videos to sell.