3 moves combo

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 3 moves combo

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:33 pm

wayne hansen wrote:How can it be a combination of what we said if what I said is rubbish
You don’t really understand English do you

The part where you said your way is the only (internal) way is rubbish. Grow up.

Your Taijiquan form is full of combinations. They are just trained in a very non-intuitive way most of the time, which is why so few practitioners can fight. Plus not sparring, of course!
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:44 pm

No way you could know what is in my tai chi
I haven’t been filmed since 1986
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:10 pm

Based on the bullshit that you're spouting, it wouldn't interest me anyways, so don't worry about it. I'm sure that we'll manage without..
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:17 pm

Oof! And so it always seems to go with so many of the thread topics here, becoming yet another ego driven pissing contest which doesn't benefit anyone. :-\

Personal opinions on every topic will always be many and varied. That's a good thing, imo, as it exposes everyone to alternative perspectives which are often insightful. 8-)

Over time, the true value of every opinion will be either validated or invalidated through the personal demonstration of acquired benefits and skills of each individual. These are nearly impossible to conceal, whether good or bad, and will generally be clear and obvious to all. :o
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby johnwang on Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:06 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Taijiquan form is full of combinations.

Agree!

1. needle at the bottom of the sea -> shoulder extend to the arm -> snake extend tone
2. turn around hammer -> fetching arm
3. step out deflect -> grab -> vital punch
4. ...

Last edited by johnwang on Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:36 am

Those are just three out of DOZENS of examples. ;)
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby origami_itto on Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:32 pm

I think there's a bit of a problem with characterizing those as a combination.

I look at the forms atomically, any given sequence of movements within it can be broken down into many different individual movements that each have a martial application on their own.

Sure you can look at them flowing into each other in the set sequence and conceivably use them in that sequence, but what are the odds that an opponent is going to respond in the precise way that makes that sequence work? Slim to none. What happens when you train that sequence assuming they'll respond that way and they do something different? You drop the beat, lose the rhythm.

To borrow a metaphor, consider the movements of the form as a string of pearls. They can be broken apart and reassembled in infinite combinations according to the changing conditions of the encounter.

So, say you try to do something with needle at sea bottom, maybe it doesn't work, so your combination flowing into fan through back is not relevant to the current circumstance. What do you do? Disengage and find a combination from some other part of the form to start a new tactic?

Why not look at where you are and see what movements are available from that position? Maybe flow into golden rooster or snake creeps down, maybe a shoulder stroke or play guitar.

The point being your body should be innately aware of the potential freedom of movement you have in any given situation. Your ding should inform you of the opponent's structure and weakness and your mind should direct your energy to flow into that open space. Instantly adapt to changing conditions with precision.

If instead you train rigid combo sequences, you aren't even open to those potential movements. You have to wait for the lock your key opens. Taijiquan is like a skeleton key, it adapts to open any door.

Yes, there is feinting and luring to provoke a response, but not a specific response. A combination will rely on a specific opening, but taijiquan realized should be able to make use of any response or opening exposed by the feint. Like water rushing into every crevice, overwhelming and consuming the target.

It's a completely different mindset.

At least that's how it works in my experience and understanding.
Last edited by origami_itto on Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:10 pm

oragami_itto wrote:The point being your body should be innately aware of the potential freedom of movement you have in any given situation. Your ding should inform you of the opponent's structure and weakness and your mind should direct your energy to flow into that open space. Instantly adapt to changing conditions with precision.

If instead you train rigid combo sequences, you aren't even open to those potential movements. You have to wait for the lock your key opens. Taijiquan is like a skeleton key, it adapts to open any door.

....

Like water rushing into every crevice, overwhelming and consuming the target.

It's a completely different mindset.


Agree 100%.

The thing is that you can never know what and how something is going to happen. Sure, you can play with combos, but you will never have any chance to use them for real. There is just no way to plan something if you are taken off guard by being suddenly attacked. You need to learn how to react without thinking, without planning, without knowing what is going to happen. You need to be able to react and adapt to what is happening when something happens.

If I remember correctly you have worked as a bouncer? Then I think you should understand what I mean by own experience.

In Tai Chi we are taught to respond to what is happening here and now. We must learn how to flow into the gaps by feeling without "thinking" what to do, how to follow and adapt solely by feeling what is happening in the moment. That is why we call it tingjin. We let what we feel decide what we should do instantly upon touch. (Yeah, you should start adapting already on distance, but that's for another class... ;) )

In fact, you can forget not only about about combos, but also postures, methods, yi, qi, sinking, rooting. Everything will go out of the window. You will be there just how you are. Because there is no time to think, you will need to react in the way and in the state you are. What you have internalized through your practice is what you will bring with you when something happens. And what happens might happen instantly in a fraction of a second. So what can you do? Just react. ;)
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:35 pm

Bao wrote:In Tai Chi we are taught to respond to what is happening here and now. We must learn how to flow into the gaps by feeling without "thinking" what to do, how to follow and adapt solely by feeling what is happening in the moment. That is why we call it tingjin. We let what we feel decide what we should do instantly upon touch.

In fact, you can forget not only about about combos, but also postures, methods, yi, qi, sinking, rooting. Everything will go out of the window. You will be there just how you are. Because there is no time to think, you will need to react in the way and in the state you are. What you have internalized through your practice is what you will bring with you when something happens. And what happens might happen instantly in a fraction of a second. So what can you do? Just react. ;)

Agreed. Right on, brother. Well said. 8-)
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:39 pm

In western boxing that is what combos are for
So that they become instinctual
On thé street you don’t get to play the set up game
No rounds No ref No rules
As you train you react
Combos are for training your opponent dictates your response
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:04 pm

Always interesting

The four techniques are ward-off, rollback, press, and push.
You have to do a lot of work to get them to be real.


First understand the four primary techniques and get them to be authentic,
then you may move on to plucking, rending, elbowing, and bumping,

performing the four secondary techniques on the basis of the primary.

The Thirteen Dynamics solo set flows on and on ceaselessly,
and hence is called Long Boxing.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/?wref=bif


4 fundamental movements the style is built on practiced in a verity of ways, with 4 secondary.

Just as in boxing

These SIX (6) basic BOXING PUNCHES--jab, cross, lead hook, rear hook, lead uppercut, rear uppercut--form the foundation of boxing.


Combos arise out of the practices, allowing a free flow of movement able to adapt as needed.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:32 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I think there's a bit of a problem with characterizing those as a combination.

I look at the forms atomically, any given sequence of movements within it can be broken down into many different individual movements that each have a martial application on their own.

Sure you can look at them flowing into each other in the set sequence and conceivably use them in that sequence, but what are the odds that an opponent is going to respond in the precise way that makes that sequence work? Slim to none. What happens when you train that sequence assuming they'll respond that way and they do something different? You drop the beat, lose the rhythm.

To borrow a metaphor, consider the movements of the form as a string of pearls. They can be broken apart and reassembled in infinite combinations according to the changing conditions of the encounter.

So, say you try to do something with needle at sea bottom, maybe it doesn't work, so your combination flowing into fan through back is not relevant to the current circumstance. What do you do? Disengage and find a combination from some other part of the form to start a new tactic?

Why not look at where you are and see what movements are available from that position? Maybe flow into golden rooster or snake creeps down, maybe a shoulder stroke or play guitar.

The point being your body should be innately aware of the potential freedom of movement you have in any given situation. Your ding should inform you of the opponent's structure and weakness and your mind should direct your energy to flow into that open space. Instantly adapt to changing conditions with precision.

If instead you train rigid combo sequences, you aren't even open to those potential movements. You have to wait for the lock your key opens. Taijiquan is like a skeleton key, it adapts to open any door.

Yes, there is feinting and luring to provoke a response, but not a specific response. A combination will rely on a specific opening, but taijiquan realized should be able to make use of any response or opening exposed by the feint. Like water rushing into every crevice, overwhelming and consuming the target.

It's a completely different mindset.

At least that's how it works in my experience and understanding.

You are missing my point, which is that any of these individual "postures", as they are known, are combinations themselves. If you remove them from the form you get something akin to Xinyiliuhequan. These combinations are usually a one-two with simultaneous attacking and blocking movements.

It is also possible to start with half of one combination and ending with half of another. When you drill these short combinations by themselves, in the way that they are intended to be used, footwork and all, this becomes much clearer than training them as part of one long, fixed sequence. The further past two movements one goes, the less realistic it becomes.

Boxing is a good analogy in principle, although not exactly the same in application, as CMA make more heavy use of trapping.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:45 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I think there's a bit of a problem with characterizing those as a combination.

I look at the forms atomically, any given sequence of movements within it can be broken down into many different individual movements that each have a martial application on their own.

Sure you can look at them flowing into each other in the set sequence and conceivably use them in that sequence, but what are the odds that an opponent is going to respond in the precise way that makes that sequence work? Slim to none. What happens when you train that sequence assuming they'll respond that way and they do something different? You drop the beat, lose the rhythm.

Right. However, if one looks at the form as concepts/energies rather than techniques/combos, their actions become virtually endless.

Excerpt from "Tai Chi Chuan: Four Essential Actions - The Essence of Tai Chi:"

Kung Fu Crazy on April 1S1ip0o, i0sfr2ce9013 wrote:The “Eight Energies” (4 corners + 4 directions = 8 energies) are not techniques (although they become techniques in application), they are methods of generating power and/or principles of movement.

The Four Essential Actions/ Directions (Si Zheng) are the four primary methods of generating force (up, backward, outward and down). They are done in specific directions. These are the essence of “grasp sparrows/ birds tail” The actions are carried out in the “corners” as well.

Grasp Birds Tail is the solo practice method of Four Essential Actions.
1. Peng - Upward, moving, expanding, light, ward off, energy rising {opposite of An}
2. Lu - Rollback, absorbing, magnetic, yielding, sticking, adhering, coiling, energy moving to the rear {opposite of Ji}
3. Ji - Outward projecting, pressing, energy moving forward, {opposite of Lu}.
4. An - Downward, push, heavy, sinking, energy moving downward, {opposite of Peng}.


windwalker wrote:4 fundamental movements the style is built on practiced in a verity of ways, with 4 secondary.

Just as in boxing

These SIX (6) basic BOXING PUNCHES--jab, cross, lead hook, rear hook, lead uppercut, rear uppercut--form the foundation of boxing.


Combos arise out of the practices, allowing a free flow of movement able to adapt as needed.

Yes.

Excerpt from "Applications of twist, deflect, step, parry, punch, close, push:"

At 1:18, "Part of this technique is simply bringing my weight onto the left side. He punches, twist step deflect down."

Image

3 moves combo:

1. A level changes (an) and brings weight to back foot (lu), drawing B's jab (yin).
2. A jabs (peng) to control center line and draws B's right cross (yin).
3. A steps left (yield) changing the center line (positioning) and issues (fa) straight right (ji).

Image

Note that jabs are not "blocked" (as in the OP). The concept of push hands/chi sao without touching—which works in the ring, as well as the street.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby origami_itto on Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:21 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:You are missing my point, which is that any of these individual "postures", as they are known, are combinations themselves. If you remove them from the form you get something akin to Xinyiliuhequan. These combinations are usually a one-two with simultaneous attacking and blocking movements.

It is also possible to start with half of one combination and ending with half of another. When you drill these short combinations by themselves, in the way that they are intended to be used, footwork and all, this becomes much clearer than training them as part of one long, fixed sequence. The further past two movements one goes, the less realistic it becomes.

Boxing is a good analogy in principle, although not exactly the same in application, as CMA make more heavy use of trapping.


Yes. You train individual postures/movements to master them.

The idea of applications is not to program specific responses to specific attacks. It's just to have an idea of something to do with the movement until you start understanding the energies at play. Then you can discard them, or not, as you like. I know some people here go both ways. Techniques can be useful.

But it's really just evolving the ideas of the 8 Gates and 5 steps. Just different ways to express them. The more you play with them the more combinations you find. Stringing them together on a sequence has many benefits, but the one I feel is most relevant here is training the flow of the three inner harmonies. I believe this is the essence of the neurological effects of taijiquan. . Like not letting the heart rate get up to 200bpm just because someone on drugs is threatening your loved ones. The reaction time improvement.

So you learn to flow with full potential to express energy in any and every direction and stay calm enough to interpret your adversary's energy and intention. Weigh them like a balance scale. Starting before contact. Formlessness, adapting to their intention.

Easy to say. Sometimes easy to do. Sometimes a little more difficult or impossible.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby dragonprawn on Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:06 am

Hi JW,
How's it going?
Your combo question makes me think back to the seminar I once took with you where you showed us "tai chi fishing". This involved two "feints", a backfist one which is blocked, followed by pulling the blocking arm, to set up a leg sweep (splitting?) takedown. But you can probably explain it better than me (or you might have a video?).
And a general question for the board, do such entries really count as combos, or do the components of a combo have to be all offensive, and not used as tricks?
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