3 moves combo

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Quigga on Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:43 pm

As far as boxers and animals... a) I don't believe boxers nowadays are anywhere equal to boxers who took up a career in close range killing and fighting, serving over many years with all limbs intact, while using sharp or spiked blunt or blunt weapons. Risk of poisoning, intrigues, ambushes, famines, combat on horseback or in the middle of the night or on an actual battlefield surrounded by more than 5 enemies. Plus no rulesets. No way in hell the quality of fighters produced are the same. Archery is interesting as well.

b) I like play-fighting dogs too. But once they bite they won't let go. Depends on the size of dog and one's abilities. You think humans are just animals and there is nothing that makes them special? I don't. We share a lot with our ancestors, obviously, but we also got that special refined something. IMO. I'm still a huge fan of non-ritual shamansim, I just think animals lack the capacity to reflect on what they've done and learn from that. I may be wrong.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:45 pm

Quigga wrote:You let them knock on the door in your mind-spirit, see how they behave, then either invite them for tea or throw them out according to their behaviour.

IMO it makes no sense to talk about IMA without meditation, prayer, intent, qi, mind-spirit-soul, jing, stuff that's bigger and beyond the mere physical body. If you reduce it to the physical you'll never get it. That's wishful thinking. Again, IMO; everyone prefers their brew differently.


I'd love to hear more about what you have to say about that. Particularly shen->xin->yi->qi->jin
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Quigga on Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:48 pm

Plus fighting in different weathers, seasons, terrains, ground conditions... facing enemies where you don't know which style or moveset they're likely to use; no chance to pre-analyse the situation. It's all in the moment and 100% spontaneous. Ofc you can't draw a masterpiece without making a straight line first, learning shading and perspective, colour harmonies,...
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Taste of Death on Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:01 pm

johnwang wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Your opponent decides your combinations anything else is not internal arts

When you throw a groin kick, if your opponent raises his knee to block it while still has his arms to guard his head, of course you will not throw a face punch after your groin kick.

But why this has anything to do with "internal" or external?


With IMA, the conditioned body responds to the attack unless one attacks first. But even in that case, you are responding to what your opponent's movements, stance, and attitude are. Things change with each movement so it's unlikely to predict what combination to throw. If you're thinking about what to do (ex. combo) your mind is getting in the way of your body.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:12 pm

johnwang wrote:1. Block - A throws a right leading punch at B. B blocks with his right back arm.
2. Jab - B punches back with left leading arm toward A's chest.
3. Cross - A drops right leading arm to block B's left punch, B then throws right back punch toward A's face.

I like this combo that I can use a jab to force my opponent to block it. I then throw anther cross toward the opening that I have just created (when my opponent drops his arm to block my punch). It's a simple but important principle - create an opening, attack the opening.

I was young back then. But I had learned a lot from that section. May be we can start to share our favor combo (3 moves, 4 moves, 5 moves, ...).

"Which strategy is better" that or your combat hypothesis?

marvin8 wrote:I can't see your combat hypothesis, "left hook, right hook to counter jab/cross" in your "testing videos." Again, can you provide any testing video showing the OP "A throws jab/cross. B uses double hooks to counter it?"

johnwang wrote:When I can do

- left hook,
- right hook,
- left arm wrap,
- right head lock,
- left leg step in,
- right leg cut,


Image

to respond to my opponent's jab and cross with speed. I feel I was still in my 30. ;D
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby johnwang on Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:42 pm

marvin8 wrote:"Which strategy is better" that or [url=https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?

The inside out block is not as good as the circular block that your arm can be on top of your opponent's arm.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:50 am

Interestingly enough, I've been told by several tough old-timers (i.e., CMAists who have actually fought and killed people using cold weapons and/or hand-to-hand fighting skills) that they always followed the "3-move rule" whenever they found themselves in a life-and-death confrontation.

The idea is that you can't finish a guy off in 3 moves, it means you've bitten off more than you can chew and should start running away because the odds are no longer in your favor.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Kelley Graham on Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:56 am

Hit them with the big fist. The ground is the big fist. Our fighting strategy. When we practice, this is the mindset. Bridging, entering, seizing, throwing, striking, kicking etc are components under this principle.

Down in one.
Down in two
Down in three.

If the opponent is still there after three, run, if you can. if you can't run, just try to survive.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:14 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"Which strategy is better" that or [url=https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?

The inside out block is not as good as the circular block that your arm can be on top of your opponent's arm.

Not "block." I asked, "Which strategy is better" that or your combat hypothesis?

johnwang wrote:1. Block - A throws a right leading punch at B. B blocks with his right back arm.
2. Jab - B punches back with left leading arm toward A's chest.
3. Cross - A drops right leading arm to block B's left punch, B then throws right back punch toward A's face.

I like this combo that I can use a jab to force my opponent to block it. I then throw anther cross toward the opening that I have just created (when my opponent drops his arm to block my punch). It's a simple but important principle - create an opening, attack the opening.

The problem with your OP combo is most opponents will not:

1. Cross their body (longest distance) to block a jab, because it's not efficient and opens one up for counters.
2. Block a jab. Most opponents will slip, pull (lu) or parry and punch/counter (ji).

In your double spears clip, your student overcommits with his left back hand when blocking your right jab—leaving himself open to OP counters.

Image

A trained fighter will defend responsibly and counter (yield/sink/counter [lu, ji]):

Image
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Quigga on Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:22 am

oragami_itto wrote:
Quigga wrote:You let them knock on the door in your mind-spirit, see how they behave, then either invite them for tea or throw them out according to their behaviour.

IMO it makes no sense to talk about IMA without meditation, prayer, intent, qi, mind-spirit-soul, jing, stuff that's bigger and beyond the mere physical body. If you reduce it to the physical you'll never get it. That's wishful thinking. Again, IMO; everyone prefers their brew differently.


I'd love to hear more about what you have to say about that. Particularly shen->xin->yi->qi->jin


Sure.

Shen is the divine aspect of a human. Some call it the 'big' you vs. the 'small' you that is your energetic heart centre (or middle dantien) where your sense of ego / your sense of identification resides in. Some call shen the admiral vs. xin the captain of a ship. One of my teachers likes to call shen (in computer terms) the operator of a PC, xin would be the software and jing + phsysical body the hardware. There are lots of ways to describe and everybody will bring some degeree of personal bias into it. Shen is your connection to God, it's the gateway or door in the sky that needs to be crossed to experience creation as it is. If you believe in an aspect that allows a being to control creative forces, this is it. It's not the direct control mechanism per sé, but it's that which allows it to function in the first place. Shen also automatically comes with responsibility to use it skillfully and in a wise manner. In general, the more access a practictioner has to the creative force, the more and quicker will he/she experience karma / dynamic rebalancing of reality's fabric.

It requires a sober and stable, balanced heart-mind (middle center - ego) to use. The goal is to - after extensive cleansing of beliefs and impressions, unlearning a LOT of no more useful stuff - merge the 'big' you and the 'small' you. One could call it 'Combining Heaven and Earth', but people connect various ideas to this nomenclature. In Christianity this would be (roughly translated from German): 'Thy empire/kingdom/REALM shall come, thy Will (-power, -force) shall manifest; as in Heaven, so on Earth.'

However, the Shen (soul-spirit; 'mind' has too many confusing connotations. The lucid-cognitive-conscious thinking process is actually the communication between Shen and Xin)...
However, the Shen can't operate on it's own. It's like a GPS navigation system - it gives information about direction, possible hazards, location info - but it can't be effective in terms of changing the world alone. If information is there but nobdy acts on it, does it really exist? Lol. If a tree falls down in a forest and no one's around to witness, does it actually happen? :D
What complicates matters more is that Shen resides in a slice of fabric that is both lacking time and space parameters of experience. In practical terms, it takes time to get used to a new quality of living life. Also, Shen couldn't function the way it does if it weren't so! To get universal information or insight, you need to transcend the universe, meaning letting go of time and space.

Be careful though - accepting the death of yourself, your loved one's, friends, animals, flora, the universe itself is a major undertaking and can rob you of all passion or desire to continue living. Yet it's 100% neccessary to banish all those attachments or else you will be steered in a wrong, potentially very dangerous for people all around you direction by clinging on to stuff. Change is the only constant, eh. But letting go of language too without going batshit bonkers is difficult, too! Ah, how exciting!

Anyway, Shen needs other stuff to function, ok. All of creation is connected to each other. God is looking into a mirror. Signs of entering and stablizing yourself in this mode of being are: feeling how the Ba Hui points is pierced and connected to Heaven, being easily aware of the energy cente above your head, experiencing various qualities of infinity and eternity, among others.
Now some may so: OH, the enlightening process is done! BULLSHIT! How can it be done if there are still beings suffering who are not enlightened themselves?

Shen is connected to a human via the upper dantian. You need to allow it to shine all around you constantly in a non-dual light way. Meaning it has no informative qualities except light that may be overwhelming or uncomfortable for some, and leading to the inspiration of other's on their own personal spiritual journey. Brotherhood of light, wink wink. You also HAVE to share this light with others, else you will get massive consequences for being an egoisitc hoarder.

I'll continue with the writing process after I care for myself a bit. Essentially, it 'shen -> xin -> yi -> qi -> jin' is a top-to-bottom way of achieving enlightenment for oneself. The discussion of pros / cons of top-bottom or bottom-top will have to wait. But extensive amounts of physical training are required either way and serve as a function to make the process safe-ish and also to allow the channelled information to vitally express themselves. See ya 8-)
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:05 am

In my personal experience, the physical action of most serious realtime fight situations faced outside the school or a competition venue occurs faster than thought can process or analyze in the moment. This is especially true when ambushed or when facing an adversary with equal or greater skills and superior speed.

Thus, in most such instances, consciously orchestrated attempts to respond with favorite technique combos of any kind are likely to fail. Only well trained unthinking automatic reactions and spontaneous responses are fast enough to successfully defend and effectively counterattack in the blink of an eye. There will be plenty of time to analyze the encounter after it's all done. :o
Last edited by Doc Stier on Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:10 am

I was trying to think of how to say the exact same thing without offending anyone who had spoken before
You are right combos are for practice and the ring reaction is for real life
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby johnwang on Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm

Can any untrained person be able to take advantage on the groin kick, face punch combo? I don't think so.

Image

The reason that you train combo is to get familiar with certain responds.

When you throw a right jab and your opponent responds, he may open his

1. right side (you follow up with another right hook),
2. left side (you follow up with another left hook),
3. bottom (you follow up with another left uppercut),
4. top (you follow up with another left overhand).

How fast will you be able to take advantage on your opponent's new opening depends on how familiar that you are with different combo. Without the combo training, when the opportunity arrives, you may not be able to catch it.

By using jab as the root, you can build up a full growing tree such as:

- jab,
- jab, cross,
- jab, cross, hook,
- jab, cross, hook, uppercut,
- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand,
- ...
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby everything on Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:52 pm

when I went to judo against lower belts with limited experience (me with tai chi, jiu jitsu, etc.), sometimes I'd mess around with fake openings like:

- keep my arms slightly central
- person would stick out his R arm to outside of my L arm
- I would "block" it with L, then sneak my R arm underneath so arms are like "X" for half a second, but he doesn't see this. sort of like some tai chi openings
- turn my R arm to "pull down" his R arm across.
- go for whatever from there. if they are super new, pretty much anything.

the black belts wouldn't feed me this simple "energy" to "borrow". one time I kept my arms wider so one teacher would go for central grip. I think he thought he had the edge. I used that 2 on 1 ph (not arm drag but similar start) move where you pull on their elbow so he stepped, then threw him the other way with most likely ippon seoi nage. I didn't tell him what I did, but he genuinely liked it nonetheless.

no idea what would happen against you guys (grappling champions and cross trainers of IMA) ---- probably wouldn't work!
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Re: 3 moves combo

Postby johnwang on Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:50 pm

everything wrote:- keep my arms slightly central
- person would stick out his R arm to outside of my L arm
- I would "block" it with L,

Combo is to set up a trap to let your opponent to fall into it. When you use downward parry to grab your opponent's arm, in order to escape your grabbing, your opponent's arm will rotate the same way as your arm. If you reverse your arm's rotation, you can meet his arm half way.
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