the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

johnwang wrote:

everything wrote:- keep my arms slightly central
- person would stick out his R arm to outside of my L arm
- I would "block" it with L,

Combo is to set up a trap to let your opponent to fall into it. When you use downward parry to grab your opponent's arm, in order to escape your grabbing, your opponent's arm will rotate the same way as your arm. If you reverse your arm's rotation, you can meet his arm half way.

this idea definitely makes me miss the fun of trying these things.

Quigga wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:

Quigga wrote:You let them knock on the door in your mind-spirit, see how they behave, then either invite them for tea or throw them out according to their behaviour.

IMO it makes no sense to talk about IMA without meditation, prayer, intent, qi, mind-spirit-soul, jing, stuff that's bigger and beyond the mere physical body. If you reduce it to the physical you'll never get it. That's wishful thinking. Again, IMO; everyone prefers their brew differently.

I'd love to hear more about what you have to say about that. Particularly shen->xin->yi->qi->jin

Sure.

Shen is the divine aspect of a human. Some call it the 'big' you vs. the 'small' you that is your energetic heart centre (or middle dantien) where your sense of ego / your sense of identification resides in....

I thank you for a comprehensive description of shen. Now where is part 2?

I suppose I should say what I'm specifically most interested in is the process by which an impulse becomes an action. You've described shen, the wellspring of impulse, what can you say about the components that process that impulse into jin, action?

Speaking directly to the point of the thread, I believe there is a certain risk in drilling combos. You see it in fights all the time. The combo begins, the opponent changes, the combo continues because it's been so deeply ingrained in muscle memory. It's a one touch process that has to complete. A set of synapses trained to fire together. Perceptive opponents pick up on those patterns. The best ones read it in real time true first time and respond immediately to changing conditions. If you rely on combos they need to have fail-safes built in.

Well you fake L to go R

But sometimes you go L

This is true in more or less all sports except the pure clock ones or judged ones.

I like some of Fedor’s old combos:

- he punches
- you’d better react otherwise lights out
- you try to stick your arm there
- he knocks it down and throws you
- you pull guard
- he GNPs you then submits you

More or less not defensible of a combo
—— until he got old

The impulse becomes action via electrical activity.

There is a state of “sub threshold excitation”.

You could say yiquan’s idea of shi li is about this: about to move but not moving.

But obviously a lot of athletes like goalies or tennis players returning 100 mph serves have to master it to a greater level.

oragami_itto wrote:... Speaking directly to the point of the thread, I believe there is a certain risk in drilling combos. You see it in fights all the time. The combo begins, the opponent changes, the combo continues because it's been so deeply ingrained in muscle memory. It's a one touch process that has to complete. A set of synapses trained to fire together. Perceptive opponents pick up on those patterns. The best ones read it in real time true first time and respond immediately to changing conditions. If you rely on combos they need to have fail-safes built in.

The OP combo begins, the opponent doesn't overcommit or block your jab. However, you "drop your leading arm to block your opponent's jab (overcommit)." The opponent punches your face. The OP combo fails.

Instead, Fury uses the same timing I explained with clips in this previous thread, when the subject "initial stage" came up. Fury controls Wilder's center, double weights him and traps with pulling hand and punch (Lop Sao Da) to Wilder's face.

Fury's combo:

1. Fury takes casual, small side steps to the left creating a superior position, which leads Wilder to follow.
2. Fury takes a quick, large shuffle step forward, timing Wilder's double weight while eliminating trading punches.
3. Fury traps Wilder's right rear hand and punches Wilder's face (Lop Sao Da) before Wilder can transfer his weight to the front foot.

Note that, instead of trapping/punch, Fury could have issued head control, front cut/osoto gari, irimi nage, etc., with the same timing under different rules:



Rokas fails to grab Jesse, because Jesse is able to yield by pushing off his front foot. Using Fury's timing (double weight) and quick shuffle steps, Rokas has a better chance of clinching, head control, etc:



Here Fury attempts to issue (steps) when Wilder's front foot is already planted ("end stage") missing the timing of Wilder's double weight, while Wilder knocks down Fury:

Competition fighters, especially among top ranked Boxing and MMA competitors, most often have an opportunity to view videos of their upcoming opponent's previous bouts, which enables them to analyze the opponent's fighting style and typical movement strategy, their preferred techniques and combos, their potential weaknesses or vulnerabilities, and so forth, in preparing a fight plan and strategy for facing each opponent.

This is a luxury which doesn't exist when facing an unexpected realtime self-defense scenario against an unknown adversary on the street or in a tavern. In these instances, we have to be prepared to effectively apply what we train against whatever style, techniques, or combinations we may encounter from opponents of any size or skill level. This type of preparation and capability is considerably more difficult.

Doc Stier wrote:Competition fighters, especially among top ranked Boxing and MMA competitors, most often have an opportunity to view videos of their upcoming opponent's previous bouts, which enables them to analyze the opponent's fighting style and typical movement strategy, their preferred techniques and combos, their potential weaknesses or vulnerabilities, and so forth, in preparing a fight plan and strategy for facing each opponent.

This is a luxury which doesn't exist when facing an unexpected realtime self-defense scenario against an unknown adversary on the street or in a tavern. In these instances, we have to be prepared to effectively apply what we train against whatever style, techniques, or combinations we may encounter from opponents of any size or skill level. This type of preparation and capability is considerably more difficult, imo.

Yes. However, understanding, listening and controlling an opponent's center (e.g., weight shifts) can be trained.

An unknown opponent will shift their weight (steps) regardless of the venue (e.g., street or ring). It's up to the MAist to recognize, train and develop these skills of timing, distance control, etc.

marvin8 wrote:...understanding, listening and controlling an opponent's center (e.g., weight shifts) can be trained.

An unknown opponent will shift their weight (steps) regardless of the venue (e.g., street or ring). It's up to the MAist to recognize, train and develop these skills of timing, distance control, etc.

Of course. We all know that to be true. I never stated or implied otherwise.

I said "we have to be prepared to effectively apply what we train against whatever style, techniques, or combinations we may encounter from opponents of any size or skill level."

Doc Stier wrote:

marvin8 wrote:...understanding, listening and controlling an opponent's center (e.g., weight shifts) can be trained.

An unknown opponent will shift their weight (steps) regardless of the venue (e.g., street or ring). It's up to the MAist to recognize, train and develop these skills of timing, distance control, etc.

Of course. We all know that to be true. I never stated or implied otherwise.

I don't know that, because the subject of "initial stage" was brought up and discussed. In this thread and previous one, the student lands his front foot. After that, a six move combo starts:

marvin8 wrote:I can't see your combat hypothesis, "left hook, right hook to counter jab/cross" in your "testing videos." Again, can you provide any testing video showing the OP "A throws jab/cross. B uses double hooks to counter it?"

johnwang wrote:When I can do

- left hook,
- right hook,
- left arm wrap,
- right head lock,
- left leg step in,
- right leg cut,



to respond to my opponent's jab and cross with speed. I feel I was still in my 30.

wayne hansen wrote:Your opponent decides your combinations anything else is not internal arts

Rubbish. I personally try not to go past two moves in a combination, but combinations work great when attacking. The moves should be flexible enough so as to be applicable to many situations and there should be an element of defence. When being attacked, combos can work equally well. These should go hand in hand with one -off moves so as to remain unpredictable. Martial arts like Xinyiliuhequan and Xingyiquan put a heavy emphasis on combinations. Not internal enough for you? Try to find a line drill with only one move, I dare you.

My Master told me that internal arts are those that he teaches at his house. External are those taught by other masters outside. Seems reasonable enough..

Like your combinations your words go nowhere

Hahaha... Lost your mind down the rabbithole, have you?

Just to be clear: Reality is a combination of what you said and what I said. Reacting is very important, it's just not the only way. A good combination forces the opponent's hand, thus allowing you to control the fight.

How can it be a combination of what we said if what I said is rubbish
You don’t really understand English do you

wayne hansen wrote:How can it be a combination of what we said if what I said is rubbish

It can't be, therefore what he said is "rubbish." If one isn't listening to/understanding their opponent, they are not fighting at a high level/open to counters/"rubbish."

Excerpt from "Jin in Taiji Quan:"

"Master" Zhang Yun wrote:4. Using jin in pushing hands and fighting

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone.

The complete process consists of five steps:
1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force,
3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
4. Nia - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and
5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.