the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby everything on Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:41 pm

if you do the qigong aspects (that you should be doing) and experiment with the hand order over dantian, it seems to me one way feels "aligned" electromagnetically. the other feels "reverse polarity" like when you turn the two magnets around. I would normally just listen to the standard advice, but it's more fun to mess around with the opposite to see what happens (this is really better learning anyway). so occasionally i do it and the "repel" feeling makes it feel more like the energy is sort of more "generated". Because it can feel like messing around with magnets, it kind of occurs to me (After some re-reading)

EV motors use a similar dynamic. (TL;DR: forces from magnets cause coils to spin. the coils are attached to an axle).
https://www.apexmagnets.com/news-how-to ... e-magnets/

There is also some research to generate electricity without the coils, not sure of the specifics:
https://www.sciencepubco.com/index.php/ ... view/24306
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby yeniseri on Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:17 pm

The wheel (falun) turning in lower dantian (qihai) is more about synchronicity, state of mind and <some?> level of homeostasis within the body. The hand is a stabilizing <medium> "force" that allows for concentrated <protection> oscillation/vibration while making sure the mind is at ease so as not to "freak out' (devil running fire aka a serious advent) when the wheel starts to turn. Other than the aforementioned, nothing else is needed except the gong of practice for the rest of one's life, or until one cannot play (practice) any more.

The initial pulsing (oscillations) are the work of practice doing what it supposed to do i.e. "breaking" up the blockages and increasing circulation through mechanical means of flexion, extension, etc aka "tendon like stretching" within the sequence of x routine. The hand polarity thing is akin to waiqiliaofa where one is/ma be actually going to use it for some external thing like tuina, paida or similar application.

NOTE: The current descriptive of "wheel turning syndrome" (falun)<as above> has no current similarity and is not related to how others have described it in its current form. The well known description, as described today lacks a basis in reality and is not a reflection of reality on any level.
Last edited by yeniseri on Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby robert on Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:19 am

everything wrote:if you do the qigong aspects (that you should be doing) and experiment with the hand order over dantian, it seems to me one way feels "aligned" electromagnetically. the other feels "reverse polarity" like when you turn the two magnets around.

Are you sure you're not Mesmerized?

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-handbook-of-western-mysticism-and-esotericism/mesmer-and-animal-magnetism/8C3484A471E523CC3334C08495432939
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby GrahamB on Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:18 pm

Looks like a classic case of being Mesmerised to me.
I could be wrong.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby everything on Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:48 pm

Lolol

As a side note, it is a bit mesmerizing.

All that fascial adhesion breakdown lol
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby robert on Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:06 am

Although the human body has a magnetic field it's 7 orders of magnitude weaker than the earth's. Think about how much strength it takes to move an exposed compass needle physically and it's 7 orders of magnitude weaker than that - 1/10000000. I don't see what role that has in internal martial arts other than it has some relation to the nervous system. I'm not conciously aware of my magnetic field and I have no idea what it's polarity might be.

I'm happy to read what you think the role of the magnetic field is in the internal martial arts. Exactly how do you determine the polarity of the magnetic field of the human body? Is it vertical or horizontal?
Last edited by robert on Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby everything on Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:12 pm

robert wrote:Although the human body has a magnetic field it's 7 orders of magnitude weaker than the earth's. Think about how much strength it takes to move an exposed compass needle physically and it's 7 orders of magnitude weaker than that - 1/10000000. I don't see what role that has in internal martial arts other than it has some relation to the nervous system. I'm not conciously aware of my magnetic field and I have no idea what it's polarity might be.

I'm happy to read what you think the role of the magnetic field is in the internal martial arts. Exactly how do you determine the polarity of the magnetic field of the human body? Is it vertical or horizontal?


robert wrote:Although the human body has a magnetic field it's 7 orders of magnitude weaker than the earth's. Think about how much strength it takes to move an exposed compass needle physically and it's 7 orders of magnitude weaker than that - 1/10000000. I don't see what role that has in internal martial arts other than it has some relation to the nervous system. I'm not conciously aware of my magnetic field and I have no idea what it's polarity might be.

I'm happy to read what you think the role of the magnetic field is in the internal martial arts. Exactly how do you determine the polarity of the magnetic field of the human body? Is it vertical or horizontal?


Not sure so I’ll ramble more
Because it’s so weak, I wonder if the energy we feel, especially when it seems “strong”, has to do with the earth’s magnetic field. Birds supposedly detect the earth’s field which helps with navigation, like a living compass. Humans cannot do so, at least as far as we know and not to this extent. Similarly we can see certain wavelengths of light “visible” to humans, but others are visible to other species but not humans. We can’t see or feel radio or TV signals. If it’s not related to the electromagnetic waves, not sure what else it could be. But in the meantime, feeing a kind of repulsion is interesting.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby robert on Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:29 pm

everything wrote:If it’s not related to the electromagnetic waves, not sure what else it could be. But in the meantime, feeing a kind of repulsion is interesting.

There are different types of qigong and it wasn't clear to me what you were referring to in the OP. Are you talking about the qigongs where you have the palms facing each other, but separated and form a qi ball or hold a qi ball? And it feels like you can compress the qi and it feels like there's some resistance?
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby everything on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:24 pm

Sort of but not exactly.

I made the “Qi ball(s)” and held above lower dantian, L closer, R farther, R over L but spaced apart. It feels fine. Just kind of holding a ball.

Then I switch to L over R. This feels like there is now repulsion. Like you flipped a magnet.

There is something sort of “contra”. Like I shouldn’t hold them this way. But the magnitude of the sensations are stronger. So it’s interesting to play with. Almost like there is instantly more Peng. Because this alignment “doesn’t want” to be like that. So it’s like dantian wants to “peng” R which wants to “peng” L.

There is more stuff like this like the opposite hand and foot thing but those don’t feel this way to me.

It feels more like a cheat or a hack. Like I shouldn’t do it for some reason, but it gives more immediate peng feeling.
Last edited by everything on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby everything on Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:56 am

it would be more like this
Image

than like this
Image
Last edited by everything on Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:36 am

Some of what is being discussed has been formally studied by others

excerpt from the paper

Qi in Taijiquan is an Intention Wave

A Study Based on Biomechanics By Jie Gu, Ph. D,

Abstract

A wave is a disturbance that propagates through a medium. A physical wave is the mechanical motion of the medium. For instance, the shear and longitudinal waves.

A chemical wave is the propaga tion of chemical reaction, for instance, the stimulation state of body tissue, the secretion state of body fluid, and the hormone gener ation state, etc. Biological wave is the orderly wave in organic body, such as the rhythmic movement of the cells. Physiological wave include physical, chemical, and biological waves.

This paper presents a new concept: intention wave; and identify that Qi (LA) in Taijiquan is the
intention wave. An intention wave is the creation and propagation of Physiological wave under the guidance of the mind.


Jie Gu, Ph.D. is a
Detroit engineer and
has studied many
aspects of Tai Chi
Chuan over the years.


In this paper, using the concept of intention wave, we study the relationship and difference between the gas of breathing and the Qi in Taijiquan. We conclude that the gas of breathing is air; the Qi of Taijiquan is a wave; the air only gets into the lungs; Qi can travel to everywhere in a body.

This paper study the functionalities for the force system and the Qi system in Taijiquan.
We conclude that the force system is mainly for defense-offense. The Qi system is mainly for self-cultivation.

Qi in classical Taijiquan Theories

Qi is special in Taijiquan. Qi is quoted in many Taiji classical arti cles. This article refer to it as the Qi of Taijiquan, or genuine Qi ( At-T,) .

In “Taijiquan Principles”, Master Wang ZongYue said, “Qi sink in Dantian ) . ” In “Thirteen

Posture Song ” Master Wang ZongYue said, “Qi is all over the body with no delay. The stomach

is relaxed and tranquil with Qi boosting

In “Thirteen posture performing method”, Master Wang ZongYue said, “Mind Qi, tranquil, then it can set into bone. Mind guide Qi to body. Also, Mind Qi transfers swiftly. and Qi delivers through nine beads ( , reaching everywhere. Also Qi is the flag”

In “Taijiquan forum”, Master Wu YuXiang said, ” Qi is elevat ing. Also,” In “Taijiquan training,”

Master Yang ChengFu said, ” Downing Qi sink in Dantian. Also, Qi is in Dantian, is elevating, trav els to everywhere of the human body, goes through nine beads.

Qi can transport from one organ to another, from organ to muscles, from muscles to bone, from Dantian to meridian, from tissue to blood.

Above all, mind can guide the production and operation of Qi.

The gas of breathing can only go into the lungs, Qi of Taijiquan can travel to everywhere in the body

The Qi in Taijiquan is different than the gas of breathing. The gas (pronounces as Qi in Chinese) of breathing is air.



Image


Master Za Xi can run Qi in the small meridian circle and through large and small Meridians circles wheri,t3 —performifilg-Tai Chi postures/M-::-


The gas from atmosphere is mainly composed of oxygen and nitrogen. Humans inhale air into lungs, the lungs take in oxygen but release carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.

So, the composition of the inhaled air and exhaled air are different, but they are all composed by gas molecules.

On the contrary, the Qi of “Qi sinks in Dantian” is not composed of gas molecules at all. To differen tiate them, we call the Qi in “Qi sink in Dantian” as genuine Qi (in Chinese, gas and Qi are shearing a same word).

Many articles discuss “what is genuine Qi.” And the conclusions are not unanimous.

Some people contend that genuine Qi and air is similar.

Others believe that genuine Qi is a substance. More people propose that genuine Qi is an electromagnetic wave. Yet additional people suggest that genuine Qi is a pure energy.

Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:41 am

Any possibility that Qi is an element yet to be discovered?

This possibility is almost zero. Mendeleyev’s periodic table does not have a proper position for Qi.

Is it possible that Qi is an even smaller particle?

Such particle has not been found in few thousand years of Chinese medicine history.
Such particles have not been found in the modern fusion of Chinese medicine and Western medicine.

Qi has several characteristics.

Qi is a presence.

Qi is not a substance itself.

Qi can carry energy.

Qi can be in and transported to many parts of the body.

Qi might be emitted out of body and human intention can guide Qi.



In wave transportation, the disturbance is propagated, the energy is delivered, but the medium itself may not necessarily be transported.




Image

Based on these characteristics, this paper provides a definition: Qi is an intention wave.

A wave in Mechanics is defined as a disturbance that propagates through space and time.

A disturbance is the motion of the medium over a small area.

Even though the disturbance occurs in a small area, it can cause motion in neighboring areas. Therefore, the

disturbance can be transported to a larger area.




Thought some. might find it interesting reading...
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:28 pm

So regarding qi, as it pertains specifically to human beings, there are several kinds described.

Prenatal qi, the qi you get from your parents before you're born, a finite resource.

Post heaven qi is renewable, it's what you cultivate and process. It is said to come from the food you eat and the air you breathe.

The better we nourish, protect, and cultivate our qi, the more we have.

Qi is said to lead Jin and is lead by yi.

We know that the food we eat is broken down by chemical processes and the energy released is stored in our fat cells and also captured by ATP molecules.

We also know that oxygen in the air enters through the lungs and is carried by red blood cells throughout the body.

In order for a muscle to fire, ATP molecules must combine with oxygen to release that stored energy. Vo2 Max is a measurement of how much of this your body is capable of doing, and this is increased by exercise, including neigong.

ATP is stored in muscle cells all throughout your body. Oxygenated blood, likewise is present throughout the body.

So when we want to perform an action, signals travel through nerves to instruct particular muscles to consume ATP bound energy by combining the ATP and oxygen in the related muscle cells and contract, thus producing the desired movement.

The yi directs the qi, producing jin, or li if that's what you're into.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby everything on Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:13 pm

We can feel our hearts beat faster or slower, we can feel our lungs fill with air, or difficulty doing so,
Oxygen debt during anaerobic exercise, lactic acid buildup, muscle cramps, DOMS, digestion or indigestion, hunger, thirst, the need to eliminate waste, etc. But those are different feelings than Qi or li or Jin even if the Venn diagrams have some overlaps.
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Re: the hand polarity dantian thing and EVs and so on

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:32 pm

It's your nervous system, condition it however you like. :D
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