Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:09 am

Image

for clarity.

The line in the illustration is meant to depict the mind intent not the alignment of the back.

There are three outer alignments, and three inner alignments.

What is referenced is the coordination that combines both arriving at an end point for "this" type of practice.

Other methods based on different concepts might use what looks to be the same postures, internally managed differently based on "their" methods
and theories .

It can be confusing if one only looks at the outer shape...

what might be considered correct or incorrect really depends on the method, theories used
... Unique to their practice.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:39 am

windwalker wrote:Image

The line in the illustration is meant to depict the mind intent not the alignment of the back.

Wow! Seriously? Since when can an ilustration or a photograph really depict an intention? ::)
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:14 am

Doc Stier wrote:
windwalker wrote:Image

The line in the illustration is meant to depict the mind intent not the alignment of the back.

Wow! Seriously? Since when can an ilustration or a photograph really depict an intention? ::)


:-\ Do you mean like when the caption on the page that the photograph was taken from explains what it’s depicting ?

Or do you feel free to make up your own explanations on other peoples work, regardless of what they wrote ?
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:21 am

Image

The 3-Passes involves the use of intention to connect the tailbone to the back and back of the head so as to unify the body as a coordinated whole. There are four variations of the 3-Passes which are trained in the forms.



https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/




More detailed in teacher Wie Shur Ren's book written in Chinese

Image


on his practice...with master Wang Yongquan

Note: material presented for informational purposes only.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:01 am

Haha! I am so advised. Lol ;D

Nonetheless, my question still stands. :P
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:02 pm

Doc Stier wrote:Hah! I am so advised. Lol ;D

Nonetheless, my question still stands. :P


This question?
Since when can an ilustration or a photograph really depict an intention?

Is there a better way to communicate an intention than a diagram? I agree that a photograph can be misleading, but when someone draws on a picture of themselves to describe what they're thinking that can help approach understanding.

Or am I misunderstanding the question?
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Appledog on Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:33 pm

oragami_itto wrote:What do you think of this description?


I think that people are of all different levels and what he is describing is totally valid.

I would be just as valid to tell you that the back leg must always be completely straight in a tai chi gong bu. The question is why -- for what level -- for what purpose. Interestingly enough, this question is somewhat answered in the article but it is an incomplete description. You can see that knowledge is being obfuscated by the ridiculously wordy and philosophical explanation given -- especially but not limited to the paragraph about using yi not force.

The whole thing is very simple. I am reminded of an old post by strange:

Post by Strange on Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:05 am
[...] GM Chen openly said that GM Chu's feint and counter-attack scared the living daylight out of him. My teacher showed me what Shigong meant: GM Chu would fake attack with a beng fist, when it is touched/ block, he would change to a snake-like attack to chop downwards.

to this day, GM Chu is the only one i heard that can use a xu zhao (fake stroke) for real. [...]


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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby everything on Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:36 pm

it's probably better to just watch mike tyson. sorry i couldn't find the best Gif.

there are some breakdowns on bloody elbow. basically
- his rear right leg propels him forward (obviously the right leg presses down/back for that).
- weight transfers to his front left leg (obviously it plants and generates a lot of downforce).
- it's really the "plyometric" aspect going down then back up (plus that amazing rotation he has ... yao) that gives his punch so much power AFAIK
- so in this case we could say at a s in time, the rear leg is doing almost nothing. yet it sets up the whole thing.

no idea what these taiji guys say, but it sounds a bit out-of-context moment-in-time-ish.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby origami_itto on Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:33 am

Appledog wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:What do you think of this description?


I think that people are of all different levels and what he is describing is totally valid.

I would be just as valid to tell you that the back leg must always be completely straight in a tai chi gong bu. The question is why -- for what level -- for what purpose. Interestingly enough, this question is somewhat answered in the article but it is an incomplete description. You can see that knowledge is being obfuscated by the ridiculously wordy and philosophical explanation given -- especially but not limited to the paragraph about using yi not force.


Context is definitely important. The problem with taijiquan is you talk about one part and it's taken to mean the sum total of everything. Nothing is always except maybe the ten essential points.

But in this particular example it's not about the leg being straight or not, but whether the muscles in the leg are doing extra work. Moving the weight from one leg to the other without pushing with the leg, but one will still bend in proportion to the other straightening. That's just geometry.

Issuing energy, sure, pushing with the foot is appropriate. Moving back and forth in gong Bu, though, is better training to use yi not force there, IMHO. ;D
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:51 am

oragami_itto wrote:

Issuing energy, sure, pushing with the foot is appropriate. Moving back and forth in gong Bu, though, is better training to use yi not force there, IMHO. ;D
.

If you're referring to the image from the wei shur ren''s book, there is no pushing involved in weight transference.

The central idea used is one of a bell with the clapper donating where the center is moved to...

When you speak of using "yi" intent how do "you" distinguish it from using force ?

Image

https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/



When they speak of "intent" this is what they use and mean
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby everything on Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:18 am

Thanks a lot for the link. Will get back to it later.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby origami_itto on Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:53 am

windwalker wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:

Issuing energy, sure, pushing with the foot is appropriate. Moving back and forth in gong Bu, though, is better training to use yi not force there, IMHO. ;D
.

If you're referring to the image from the wei shur ren''s book, there is no pushing involved in weight transference.

I was not referring to that image. I was just saying, in general, the methods I'm familiar with for issuing energy involve pressing with the feet. That's in contrast to this description of shifting weight in gong bu where the legs and feet are passive.

The central idea used is one of a bell with the clapper donating where the center is moved to...


I'm not the biggest fan of that analogy. Is that implying the dantien is a pendulum hanging from the neck?

When you speak of using "yi" intent how do "you" distinguish it from using force ?


That's a bit tricky, isn't it? I don't believe you can move the human body without involving muscular contraction and/or relaxation. I'd be happy to learn differently if it can be demonstrated and measured.

The quality I'm talking about is in moving the body without the muscles perceptibly engaging. Muscles are involved, see above, but I guess deeper muscles. You don't feel or see them engaging. You become more "transparent" to force. There's a kind of knack to moving with it. Very rewarding. It's similar in sensation to the Kohnstamm phenomenon.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Bob on Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:52 am

A different way to look at the "static posture" is to view it from the perspective of one application we called Ta Zhang (collapsing palm) - it is a very subtle way of expressing fajin in the strike without barely noticing it although you need a well relaxed body for full body expression - in the illustration with the ball provided by Windwalker, the initial contact occurs with the striking of the finger tips - it directs the mind of the opponent to that point but the actual strike comes immediately from base of the palm with the whole hand collapsing and the power begins with the back leg through the waist, back, arm shoulder and palm. For that split second the full body expression is Yang and immediately relaxes and becomes yin and back to the palm shape in the picture.

Again, not the only way to see things but kind of illustrates why it is hard to see dynamics and effective alignment and application in a snapshot, static posture.but

You can see this illustrated in technique 4 Ta Zhang as expressed in Bagua but is found in Yang style taijiquan, bajiquan, and even some praying mantis

https://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/baguaposts.htm
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby everything on Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:03 pm

it sounds like the original quote only refers to mechanics. if that's the case, I'd just study tyson.

the page ww posted is talking about intent and energy plus the external shapes. those all go together in ima. you can work from the inside out and the shape will follow. if you work from the outside in, certain shapes (like the hand example) make the internal work easier to do. it's pretty much that simple. but you actually have to do all of ima, not piecemeal it.
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