Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

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Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:43 pm

https://www.facebook.com/wenwuacademy/p ... 21/?type=3

What do you think of this description?

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Last edited by oragami_itto on Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby vadaga on Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:50 am

Interesting article. I'd never really thought much about whether my center would be leading my feet or vice versa- I will have to be more conscious of this during practice today.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Bao on Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:51 am

Copied from the original page:

", I realized that Gong Bu is not using force pushing forward. It uses Yao-Kua turning and Song Chen to the front leg. Also, the back leg is not using force at all. My master said, "under the feet has to be stable, so it has a root.", the root is created down to the ground, not by a horizontal force pushing upward.
In training boxing, one must use Yao lead feet, not using feet to push Yao. So, every time doing Gong Bu, one must keep in mind that Yao is the commander, and whatever the full or empty legs, they must be stable. To train for stability under the feet, I used to practice the form on a slippy floor and even with straw and sand on the floor, to make it even more slippy under my feet."


Totally agree. The weight must go straight down and you cannot force the stance by pushing the leg. If you try to force the stance forward, you are using strength, and you are working against the gravity, not with it.

Developing real rooting by relaxing through all of the stances and letting the gravity correct them, is very important, IMHO.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:09 am

According to Damon Bramich
Its incorrect and misleading... When one's form is correct there is no confusion regarding the principles body requirements. The picture is not a good example of best practice.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:18 am

oragami_itto wrote:According to Damon Bramich
Its incorrect and misleading... When one's form is correct there is no confusion regarding the principles body requirements. The picture is not a good example of best practice.

Agreed. It looks double weighted to me, if it is the final stance position of weight distribution at the completion of the posture. :-\
Last edited by Doc Stier on Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:15 am

Doc Stier wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:According to Damon Bramich
Its incorrect and misleading... When one's form is correct there is no confusion regarding the principles body requirements. The picture is not a good example of best practice.

Agreed. It looks double weighted to me, if it is the final stance position of weight distribution at the completion of the posture. :-\


Other than the picture, how do you feel about the main idea in the text? The vertical vs horizontal.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Bao on Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:23 am

oragami_itto wrote:According to Damon Bramich
I... When one's form is correct there is no confusion regarding the principles body requirements.


I don’t agree. If a posture looks correct from the outside it still doesn’t mean that it is correct. The internal understanding should certainly be expressed on the outside. But the principles and body requirements are still not on the outside.

The picture is not a good example of best practice.


Maybe I would prefer to see the weight a bit more forward. However, personally, if the form is not horribly wrong, I refuse to judge a person’s Tai Chi, and understanding there of, on one picture alone. I would prefer to see more and know more about the reasons for him to do what he does. And I am sure someone could look at pictures on Damon’s postures and find things to complain on. We often need context before we judge.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Bao on Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:25 am

Li Yaxuan:

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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Rhen on Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:32 am

In regards to pushing into the ground with your foot that is a Tai Chi classic: foot through leg, up waist and spine and out the hand" as Jin (chin) expression

there is another way of stepping where you can use the front foot to assist (pulling the weight forward).

Walk like a cat is my favorite way to tell students however.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Bob on Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:36 am

FWIW - once told by a decent taijiquan teacher that the only thing you can infer from a static posture is proper alignment - he went on to say that the practice of taijiquan is dynamic and a constant set of yin and yang changes where nothing is ever 100% yin or 100% yang except for transition - he had a similar view on double weighting and movement
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby co-lee on Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:53 pm

Agree w/ Bao and w/ Liang that there shouldn't be a horizontal component of force against the ground thru the front foot. If there is horizontal force along the ground thru the front foot, you're either bracing with the rear foot or relying on friction along the front foot. Or both. (Most people seem to do both: brace and count on friction. And it's really hard to know what Liang means by "the root is created down to the ground, not by a horizontal force pushing upward". Horizontal forces by definition don't push up, they push parallel to the ground. That's what horizontal means...)

And also agree w/ various folks Damon and Doc that the picture sure looks double weighted. Interestingly that configuration basically guarantees that there is horizontal force against the ground, thru both feet this time. So, amusing to see the description immediately contradicted by the picture.

Of course, it's impossible to tell from a picture without touching. And standard disclaimer, I'm sure all these people were more skilled than I...

Back leg is another issue, esp'ly around how to correctly use it in relation to the ground and the expressed force. But, you'll never get there if the back leg is having to hold you up in a bow stance, the legs are braced against each other, and both feet are relying on friction to keep from sliding out from under you.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:11 pm

co-lee wrote:Agree w/ Bao and w/ Liang that there shouldn't be a horizontal component of force against the ground thru the front foot. If there is horizontal force along the ground thru the front foot, you're either bracing with the rear foot or relying on friction along the front foot. Or both. (Most people seem to do both: brace and count on friction. And it's really hard to know what Liang means by "the root is created down to the ground, not by a horizontal force pushing upward". Horizontal forces by definition don't push up, they push parallel to the ground. That's what horizontal means...)

And also agree w/ various folks Damon and Doc that the picture sure looks double weighted. Interestingly that configuration basically guarantees that there is horizontal force against the ground, thru both feet this time. So, amusing to see the description immediately contradicted by the picture.

Of course, it's impossible to tell from a picture without touching. And standard disclaimer, I'm sure all these people were more skilled than I...

Back leg is another issue, esp'ly around how to correctly use it in relation to the ground and the expressed force. But, you'll never get there if the back leg is having to hold you up in a bow stance, the legs are braced against each other, and both feet are relying on friction to keep from sliding out from under you.


Just to clarify, and because I was confused as well, the words aren't Liang's, they're Huang Renliang's. The photo is of his teacher that introduced the concept to him.

I defer to the much greater skill of Doc and Damon, but it occurs to me that if you're following the method described it's pretty much impossible to be double weighted. It actually directly addresses the usual hand waving around the trouble of even weight during transitions.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby co-lee on Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:36 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Just to clarify, and because I was confused as well, the words aren't Liang's, they're Huang Renliang's. The photo is of his teacher that introduced the concept to him.

Liang puts the quote marks around "under the feet has to be stable, so it has a root". Those look like Zhang Yu's words. But then Liang appears to add "the root is created down to the ground, not by a horizontal force pushing upward". And that sentence appears to be his own. (as well as being self-contradictory).

On reading again, I guess I see what you're saying: the whole passage is from something Huang wrote and the "feet stable, root" part is from Huang's teacher Zhang. And who knows whether the confusion is from translation or from Huang trying to sound all scientific...

I defer to the much greater skill of Doc and Damon, but it occurs to me that if you're following the method described it's pretty much impossible to be double weighted. It actually directly addresses the usual hand waving around the trouble of even weight during transitions.

Yes, getting it so a single leg is supporting the body addresses the issue of avoiding double weighting during transitions ...
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:40 am

co-lee wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
Just to clarify, and because I was confused as well, the words aren't Liang's, they're Huang Renliang's. The photo is of his teacher that introduced the concept to him.

Liang puts the quote marks around "under the feet has to be stable, so it has a root". Those look like Zhang Yu's words. But then Liang appears to add "the root is created down to the ground, not by a horizontal force pushing upward". And that sentence appears to be his own. (as well as being self-contradictory).

On reading again, I guess I see what you're saying: the whole passage is from something Huang wrote and the "feet stable, root" part is from Huang's teacher Zhang. And who knows whether the confusion is from translation or from Huang trying to sound all scientific...


It's definitely a bit of a muddle. I suppose if you have no experience with the technique it might sound strange, but if you've been training this it sings. I have been getting to the same point using a slightly different way of thinking about it and found this helpful so figured others might too.
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Re: Huang Renliang on Gong Bu

Postby Bao on Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:49 am

I don't know, maybe the "upward" in "the root is created down to the ground, not by a horizontal force pushing upward" is a mistake.

In the beginning it reads: "push the back leg and bend the front knee".

and then: "All gong bu use the back leg to force push forward and bend the front leg."

And then later: "I realised that gong bu is not force pushing forward"

So "pushing upward" is probably a mistake, What is meant is probably that if the "leg pushes forward" this "creates a horizontal force" from the foot and up the leg. This is wrong and means bracing. The rear leg should not push the stance forward and the force or weight should be straight down in both of the feet. If this is what is meant, I do agree.
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