the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Things get a LOT more interesting.

Then these words people parse

Using things like the sports gifs I pasted

…. Well it gets a bit “off” of what you might think

Those things applied to someone like Iniesta (footballer)
Are not why someone would write “songs”
Despite iniesta being supremely graceful in his sport

To roughly paraphrase ww’s earlier comment,

Iniesta has an outer change state we can see.

marvin8 wrote:

windwalker wrote:Was wondering is that what you "see" happening despite the description / translation ?

I see what the description / translation reads, "You push...push...push."

thanks for the reply...


found it interesting

happy holidays

The heart sutra

Form does not differ from Emptiness Emptiness does not differ from Form.

http://zbohy.zatma.org/Dharma/zbohy/Int ... inyin.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-wahm2ZKvo

Master Wang Pei Sheng, quoting it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8LLs5ti7_8&t=511s

His demo, explaining emptiness how its used in taiji...

Not much emptiness there
Talk and delay leads the student into hardness lack of awareness then structure throws him away
The only real emptiness is in fullness
The only stillness is in vital activity
Stop start demos are just displays of theory

Woah...Wayne, where's your eyes man?

At about 7:25 of the second video (above your last post) ... Guy on right (in jeans) starts to issue a bit of Peng forward and is lead into emptiness.

1) Did he over-extend and have to take a step forward to save his balance? = Yes

2) At the very end of his extension, even if for a brief moment...was his energy empty? (Meaning it was pretty much devoid of power) = Yes

Just because it's short doesn't mean it didn't happen. It did happen right at that moment.

I do this to people all the time and the PENG natzis always hate it. Nothing better than when you meet another martial artist ( Internal / guy who claims he knows push hands ) and then when you have them off balance or you have them set up for a throw or strike.... They try to claim, "you're doing it wrong" . haha

I see it very different to that
He is talking with the guy leaning on him
Most likely a pre arranged agreement
Wang then leads him to the right stops when the guy realigns
Talks again misdirecting then throws him away
There is some skill in this and plenty use similar methods
I only value this type of thing when it is done in the midst of continuing action
The same thing can be shown without the stop start thing
Explain what you are going to do then do it in the act of continuous movement

wayne hansen wrote:Not much emptiness there
Talk and delay leads the student into hardness lack of awareness then structure throws him away
The only real emptiness is in fullness
The only stillness is in vital activity
Stop start demos are just displays of theory

Well, at the beginning, he says that he empties his right side, that side is not allowed to move or to make pressure against the opponents arm, that would be considered double weighted and would inhibit your tingjin.

Translated version, marked at the correct time where he speaks about these things:
https://youtu.be/DNBM2WsMLW8?t=72

I think this version uses Omar's old translation. He used annotations for his translations, a function which YouTube got rid of.

The theory is just fine, and he demonstrates it well. But I agree that it's a demonstration and not a live setting.

wayne hansen wrote:I only value this type of thing when it is done in the midst of continuing action
The same thing can be shown without the stop start thing

Agreed that spontaneous following and adapting is better, and continuity without interruption. However from what I have seen from Mr Wang, I don't doubt that he can do this. However, this particular video is from a seminar, or a demonstration, focused on theory and explanations.

Subitai wrote:I do this to people all the time and the PENG natzis always hate it. Nothing better than when you meet another martial artist ( Internal / guy who claims he knows push hands ) and then when you have them off balance or you have them set up for a throw or strike....

Absolutely, it's easy to do. What most Tai Chi people present I call the "peng disease". Most Tai Chi people tend to really way too much on "structure", "peng" and "posture". They become tense, stiff, offer resistance, and uses way too much pressure against their opponent's. But Tai Chi should be light and offer no resistance at all. IMO. Your peng should always be there as a potential, but you should be so light that you don't even let your opponent to feel it. Well, at least this is the ideal, imho. Not always easy to live up to against skilled opponents.

Bao wrote:What most Tai Chi people present I call the "peng disease". Most Tai Chi people tend to really way too much on "structure", "peng" and "posture". They become tense, stiff, offer resistance, and uses way too much pressure against their opponent's. But Tai Chi should be light and offer no resistance at all. IMO. Your peng should always be there as a potential, but you should be so light that you don't even let your opponent to feel it. Well, at least this is the ideal, imho. Not always easy to live up to against skilled opponents.

I think that structure/peng/posture [SPP] and “no resistance at all” [NRAA] are both correct, although often used poorly.

While your experiences with SPP people is common, I feel that this is because they are incorrectly emphasizing their own stability (resulting in resistance…) rather than on RECEIVING the opponent’s force through the structure and down to the feet. A rubber ball RECEIVES with structure (and fullness…) without stiffness [i.e. like a pine tree limb receives snow]. This quality requires proper SPP, but they also need to eventually be more like the ball or pine tree when more skilled. One needs to learn proper SPP, but then the quality needs to be refined.

The NRAA approach also has potential misapplications until one attains more skill. Too often this approach leads to compromised and collapsed SPP because they are incorrectly trying to ESCAPE rather than RECIEVE. NRAA is like keeping the opponent on an extreme tangent to one’s sphere, but one should not lose the quality of the sphere (the SPP).

To me, one should use both approaches (although one or the other can be emphasized).

For those commenting on master wang’s
demo.

Might make the comments more clear
posting some of “their “ work
past or recent.

Good for the goose
When something is posted for discussion there is no need to post your own to gain the right to speak
You can say a movie is bad without spending millions to make your own blockbuster
Saying that I always like to see those speaking showing their own stuff it gives context
I train my students to avoid what some want their students to do
Peng should be gone by the time you realise it’s there
I think master Wang is quite skillful I am just commenting on what is presented nothing more

wayne hansen wrote:Good for the goose
When something is posted for discussion there is no need to post your own to gain the right to speak

Some have web sites others can view their work if interested.

As to the clip in question it's a "demo" ie demonstration of principles explained.

maybe some confusion

Found it interesting, someone with long yrs of practice, would bother to critic a "demo" of a noted "taiji master"
with out showing either their own work or another's work showing the points of contention..for comparison.

happy holidays.

I have nothing against the demo
I was responding to things that were said about the demo and just giving another point of view
As for the put up or shut up culture
I show what I want when I want
By the feedback I get in written form I doubt that most would pick up what I am doing these days so what would be the point