Meditation and taijiquan

[everything]

seated qigong could be in the venn diagram overlap. whoever "they" is, even if it's fedor, I would still listen to Wang and Guo (who taught Sun as well) first about ima things. in a bad analogy way, expert golfers can "practice golf" without moving ... but they've already become expert in the moves. in some ways, zhan zhuang is also easier. even "non-internally", some benefits seem pretty clear pretty quickly.

[origami_itto]

Well there certainly are a plethora of techniques and methods to choose from.

[Steve James]

And a whole lot of them too!

[Graculus]

Windwalker brought Zen up a few posts ago, and I think it may be a useful reference point because although there are a few famous practitioners of the Japanese arts who practiced Zen on a personal basis, it has by no means been part of the mainstream of traditional arts (and we are talking five hundred years or so here), and some even inveigled against it, maintaining that it was counter-productive and the kind of 'power' it produced could not be utilised for fighting. Even so, Zen has become strongly associated with JMA, perhaps largely due to DT Suzuki (Zen and Japanese Culture) and Herrigel (Zen in the Art of Archery). I wrote about it here on my blog back in 2010... https://ichijoji.blogspot.com/2010/10/zen-again-what-pickle.html

In fact, the arts themselves (if we take a discipline such as kenjutsu) are supposed to contain all that a practitioner needs to obtain access to the higher levels of skill. That having been said, there are stories of retreats (usually in the precincts of shrines or temples) during which the practitioner achieved some kind of breakthrough (from which they typically went on to found their own style). These retreats probably included a variety of esoteric practices and based on the types of things that are still practised in out of the way corners of the religious world here, I guess these were the type of thing that brought the practitioner to a state of mental and physical exhaustion. Regular meditation practice, Zen included, doesn't seem to have been part of the arts.

The most advanced practitioners I have seen in JMA and CMA did not teach meditation, but I can see how it might increase the practitioner's sensitivity to what is happening in his own body (and mind) - or indeed, outside it - and thus make it easier to do what he is being taught, rather like isolation exercises for certain muscles, especially for more advanced techniques that have a strong mental/psychological component.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[wayne hansen]

Loved zen and the art of archery as well as his wife’s book
Pity he was a Nazi war criminal

[Graculus]

I did, too (although I never read his wife's book).
Yes, a pity indeed. Zen didn't come out of the war too well, either.

[windwalker]

Interesting reading historical references of Zen method/ mind set
applied to the sword.




The book of five rings

The Normal Mind8
A monk asked an ancient worthy, “What is the Way?” He
replied, “The normal mind is the Way.”

The story contains a principle that applies to all the arts.
Asked what the Way is, the ancient worthy replied that the
normal mind is the Way.
This is truly the ultimate. This is
the state where the sicknesses of mind are all gone and one
has become normal in mind, free from sickness even when
in the midst of the sickness

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/rin.pdf

THE UNFETTERED MIND
WRITINGS OF THE ZEN MASTER TO THE SWORD MASTER
TAKUAN SOHO

Of the three essays included in this translation, two were letters: Fudochishinmyoroku,
“The Mysterious Record of Immovable Wisdom,”

written to Yagyu Munenori, head of the
Yagyu Shinkage school of swordsmanship and teacher to two generations of shoguns; and
Taiaki, “Annals of the Sword Taia,” written perhaps to Munenori or possibly to Ono
Tadaaki, head of the Itto school of swordsmanship and also an official instructor to the
shogun’s family and close retainers.

As a whole all three are addressed to the samurai class, and all three seek to unify the
spirit of Zen with the spirit of the sword.

https://terebess.hu/zen/UnfetteredMind.pdf

[origami_itto]

I feel like it's worth mentioning the legend of Shaolin here. While I'm asking about meditation as an ancillary practice to the main martial art, the story with Shaolin is that they first practiced meditation. When Tamo saw their health deteriorating from the sedentary practices, he introduced then to the physical cultivation techniques we know as Kung Fu.

[Bao]

I feel like it's worth mentioning the legend of Shaolin here.

Why?

While I'm asking about meditation as an ancillary practice to the main martial art, the story with Shaolin is that they first practiced meditation. When Tamo saw their health deteriorating from the sedentary practices, he introduced then to the physical cultivation techniques we know as Kung Fu.

Just a myth. In the old records, Damo /Boddhidharma was just someone who spent his whole day staring into a wall. Chinese martial arts are older and brought in from outside.

Here for instance, the Taoist philosopher Ge Hong wrote:

“All the martial arts [quan] have secret formulas to describe important techniques and have secret mysterious methods to overcome an opponent. If an opponent is kept unaware of these, then one could defeat him at will.”

Ge Hong lived 283-363. Damo or Bodhidharma is said to have arrived at the Shaolin Temple in the year 527.

So we have actual written records proving that Chinese martial arts are much older than the Shaolin Temple. And in fact, most of those records point to that the origin lies much closer to Daoists than Buddhists. (Though the Chinese martial arts probably stem from military practice.)

The real monks didn't practice martial arts. Buddhism teaches that you should not harm and that you should not kill. The so called "Fighting Shaolin monks" who brought their martial arts to the monastery were criminals and robbers who took refuge in the temple. They lived there and protected the temple for foods and a place to stay. This was the very reason why the Shaolin temple was originally destroyed. It lied too close to the Silk Road. Many monasteries harboured robbers who attacked the roads, robbing goods and silk that were traded along the Silk Road.

[origami_itto]

Hence my use of "legend" and "story" there. And precisely to get that sort of examination.

[Steve James]

The Shaolin martial arts origin story is an interesting folk explanation. The Damo legend, iinm, explained how monks at the temple began to exercise to offset their sedentary lifestyle. The exercises he supposedly brought imitated animal 'frolics.' From those exercises developed the animal styles etc.

The temples as places where criminals held up seems to be more folk history, though. It's almost certain that there were people practicing what we'd call martial arts wherever there were people, even before there were monks. I'm not sure there's any reason to believe that only criminals practiced martial arts. It seems more likely that there needs to be a structural need, usually military, and some type of organization. Would that lead to the creation of animal styles, etc? Otoh, just because Buddhism promotes non-violence, that doesn't mean they don't fight or protect themselves. It would make sense for people to find ways to protect themselves from bandits.

Shaolin was a Buddhist temple. Buddha and Laotse were relatively contemporary. But, afa Damo, I'd always thought that he practiced yoga. The idea of uniting the mind and body was the key concept, and that neglecting one for the other was unhealthy.

So, who would be more likely to organize a style? Why would monks? Why would criminals? Who would link it to any religion? If there were a purely Taoist/Chinese origin, how and why would a Buddhist temple play such an important historical part? Who would think up a guy coming from India? Yeah, there are loads of legendary origin stories, like Chang San Feng or even Buddha.

[Bao]

The Shaolin martial arts origin story is an interesting folk explanation. The Damo legend, iinm, explained how monks at the temple began to exercise to offset their sedentary lifestyle. The exercises he supposedly brought imitated animal 'frolics.' From those exercises developed the animal styles etc.

The Damo legend didn't start to become publicly popular until the first half of The 19th century. Baduanjin/ eight pieces of Brocade was first published in the 1820s. The myths might have been created around this time.

The temples as places where criminals held up seems to be more folk history, though. It's almost certain that there were people practicing what we'd call martial arts wherever there were people, even before there were monks. I'm not sure there's any reason to believe that only criminals practiced martial arts.

Never said that there was only criminals practicing martial arts. In the Warring States, there were wandering knights, or mercenaries, who travelled around and protected villages amongst other places for foods and a place to stay. They were called "xia", and this is from where the legendary stories of "wuxia" stories and the Jianghu derived from. They also taught villagers and farmers to protect themselves and to create simple weapons. This might be the true origin of the Chinese Martial arts. At least some of the truth.

It seems more likely that there needs to be a structural need, usually military, and some type of organization.

Temples, Daoist and Buddhist could be protected by the emperors armies as well. And the wealthier temples could rent guards from different types of schools for bodyguards and security personnel. Buddhist monasteries are well known for harbouring criminals. However, to believe that the monks could protect themselves...

Would that lead to the creation of animal styles, etc?

Why do you think that the creation of animal styles would have anything to do with the Shaolin temple myth? This is a completely different story. You should have heard about Hua Tuo's five animal exercise. A couple of hundred of years before the Shaolin temple. Animal and nature was used to name various exercises, Daoist and others. It is the most natural thing to give martial art postures and exercises names from animals and nature. It's just about names, labels.

Shaolin was a Buddhist temple.

Buddhism and Daoism melted together as soon as Buddhism came to China. There are eight main schools of Chinese Buddhism, but there is no "pure" Indian Buddhism in China (until very recent).

But, afa Damo, I'd always thought that he practiced yoga. The idea of uniting the mind and body was the key concept, and that neglecting one for the other was unhealthy.

There is no source or proof of any Yoga. Just sitting meditation. Damo taught his meditation, but the Chinese monks practiced their own physical exercises, folk gymnastics that were already integrated with Daoist exercises.

Who would link it to any religion?

Everyone in the old China was religious. Why would there not be a link?

If there were a purely Taoist/Chinese origin, how and why would a Buddhist temple play such an important historical part?

Play an important role in what? You mean the development of Chinese martial arts? It didn't. That it did is just a myth.

Who would think up a guy coming from India? Yeah, there are loads of legendary origin stories, like Chang San Feng or even Buddha.

Who said that Damo is a myth? He is recorded in official records as well as Buddhist records. There is no reason to believe that he didn't existed. He was a real person alright. Official and old Buddhist records both say that he came from India and was invited by the emperor to take over the Shaolin monastery. The Buddhist records say that he spent his the most of his days sitting and starring at a wall in a cave. The rest are all myths.

[everything]

medical oriented research on meditation seems to involve talking about increased theta waves, but no increase in waves associated with sleeping, mental tasks, etc. so "alert, awake relaxation". while that seems super interesting and helpful for some things, I'm not sure it's particularly relevant if you have martial arts or sports application interests.

usually i use my "fake goalkeeper" example. I'm doing "zhan zhuang" (not trying to do anything qigong btw), trying to have "no mind", trying to stay relaxed with some yiquan-like "almost movement" so I'm not too tense to react, only mental alertness thing is trying to assess danger and if someone is about to shoot from a good position. if i do all that correctly, my arm or leg "just moves" without much thought. this is the sports reaction I'd want. but my mental/CNS state is NOT relaxed as in the above medical studies. perhaps those types of meditations help one to more easily reach the correct state while in the higher stress situation though.

plethora of techniques

In an IMA/MA/sports context, I'd think we're MAINLY/ONLY interested in those that help the application. If the navel gazing stuff is relevant, it should help in the other context. From an IMA pov, it should go beyond my fake goalkeeper bits I mentioned. Personally I'm just a beginner for the IMA bits. What ww said in this thread or the other about xin and qi and can "you" do it is still the most relevant question. The sports example I gave is just ordinary sports stuff, including in all MA. Nothing "internal". It's not a "for each their own" kind of thing any more than kicking a ball is.

[Steve James]

Why do you think that the creation of animal styles would have anything to do with the Shaolin temple myth?

Because it is part of the "myth." It may not be the actual history. My basic question was "why" the myth was created and who created it.

Buddhism and Daoism melted together as soon as Buddhism came to China.

Well, I'd say it would take a while for that to happen. But, sure, the Chinese people adopted practices from both. They didn't have to give up Taoist folk practices or traditions to be Buddhists --especially not monks.

There is no source or proof of any Yoga.

I mentioned yoga because of the idea of uniting the mental, physical, and spiritual. I was trying to relate it to the thread topic, more than to any particular gymnastics. But, if as you say later, the historical Damo only did meditation, why is he mentioned in the myth at all? Is that what he contributed?

Oh, and btw, just because something is a myth doesn't mean it isn't true. Actually, a myth is a story that people take for history. It can be true or false. I'm sure you've heard that myths are usually based on history. The problem (and commonality) is that myths are always written/related by people who weren't there. If Damo wrote/recorded something, then that's first person evidence. If someone wrote about him while he was alive, that's second hand. But, after that, people are just retelling stories. Religious people who believe the universe was created in 7 days believe that is history. Could be true. But, we know they weren't there.

[origami_itto]

plethora of techniques

In an IMA/MA/sports context, I'd think we're MAINLY/ONLY interested in those that help the application. If the navel gazing stuff is relevant, it should help in the other context. From an IMA pov, it should go beyond my fake goalkeeper bits I mentioned. Personally I'm just a beginner for the IMA bits. What ww said in this thread or the other about xin and qi and can "you" do it is still the most relevant question. The sports example I gave is just ordinary sports stuff, including in all MA. Nothing "internal". It's not a "for each their own" kind of thing any more than kicking a ball is.

So are you saying Doc and Rickson Gracie are wasting their time with anything other than Zhan Zhuang?

Not to mention the other highly skilled people that I have touched hands with that swear by other methods.

I certainly don't think that I know enough to claim any one practice is the only path to benefits, direct or indirect. Part of why I asked this question. To get insight from my betters.

It appears from discussions and experience that the emotional and psychological aspects of one's being are just as important as the purely physical when it comes to resolving conflict. "Navel-gazing" in theory should work directly on that, and on the autonomous aspects of the nervous system, reaction time, time dilation, reducing the "noise floor" in our systems, perhaps even leading to precognition and extra sensory perception according to some practitioners.

Which is to say we shouldn't just dismiss it out of hand just because one person we respect didn't happen to mention it. They may have never been exposed to a worthwhile method.