Strange Attitude

[johnwang]

In another thread people mentioned someone's teacher XYZ (the name is not important to this discussion) and said:

"XYZ is not tai chi or anything internal. He may have practiced the form but, never learned its uses (no matter how long XYZ has trained in Taiji, he is still an external guy)."

Will you be upset if you were XYZ's student?

If one said:

"XYZ, is not Baiji or anything external. He may have practiced the form but, never learned its uses (no matter how long XYZ has trained in Baiji, he is still an internal guy)."

Will you still be upset if you were XYZ's student?

[bruce]

for one do not really care about all the labels and distinctions so no i would not care as long as i thought i was learning what i asked to be taught.

[Bao]

One should not be upset just because different people interprete labels differently.

If a person says that he knows things better than you, but won't do anything to prove facts with action, you don't need to be upset or anything. If he proves with action that he is better than you ( = he has a better teacher than you), you should change teacher or practice harder. Just being upset does not help you improve anything.

[DeusTrismegistus]

One should not be upset just because different people interprete labels differently.

If a person says that he knows things better than you, but won't do anything to prove facts with action, you don't need to be upset or anything. If he proves with action that he is better than you ( = he has a better teacher than you), you should change teacher or practice harder. Just being upset does not help you improve anything.

Its not logical to assume because someone is better than you that they have a better teacher. It all depends on the student themselves. A gifted student can be shown shit and manage to get something worthwhile out of it through their own insight, a dumb student can be shown gold and walk away with shit. If someone works 6 days a week on thei gung for 2 years and you have been working 2 days a week for 5 years who will be better?

I really wouldn't care what anyone said. If XYZ is teaching me and I am having fun and am getting what I want out of the practice, then I am happy. I really don't care anyways because usually comments like that are based on 3rd and 4th hand accounts from someone who saw a demo once or something stupid like that. If it was coming from a respected IMA master who had crossed hands with XYZ then I might give it some weight.

[Walter Joyce]

for one do not really care about all the labels and distinctions so no i would not care as long as i thought i was learning what i asked to be taught.

Bruce has illuminated the correct and stated in succinctly.

[SPJ]

yes as pointed out, there are no needs to be upset about.

1. there are many ways of doing the same postures or forms. we may do it slowly to get the correct balance and movement. the practice then is called for the shapes or xing jia.

we may also practice them to accentuate certain power or jin. so when we practice Ba Ji slowly and only release some power at very end to practice inch power or cun jin. this is called for power expression or Jin Jia. however, there are many powers to work on or practice.

yes people may say, you guys doing it all wrong, it is not ba ji, it is too slow, there is no power. might as well practice tai ji.

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2. along the same line, body methods, the balance, shifting weight, landing feet, arm and waist movements etc

if you do it slowly, but you get everything right, to me, it is a good practice.

3. even though, we may do everything right, unavoidably, everyone will show a slight different flavor due to body physiques and interpretation from each individual or each school.

4. everyone is entitled to his or her oppinions, if it is based on valid observations and sound "critique". then we accept what it is, if not, just ignore them.

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[kenneth fish]

Frankly, I think the comment was at the very least tactless, at worst a deliberate insult and provocation. Its not the sort of thing I would like to see on this board - common courtesy and politeness are always to be preferred.

[johnwang]

I think you guys are missing the main point here. If an external guy had trained internal and people still call him external guy then he may be upset. But if a internal guy had trained external and people still call him internal guy then he may not be upset. That's the "strange attitude" that I'm talking about.

Just like people said, this and that are "internal" and everything else are "external". It's just like saying, "If you make over $1,000,000 a month then you are rich, otherwise you are poor".

[qiphlow]

comments like the one JW posted about reflect poorly on the person making the comment.

[josh]

What I find more disturbing than the "not internal" jab is the statement "He may have practiced the form but, never learned its uses." For one professional instructor to make that comment about another professional, with regard to a style that he/she is teaching publicly, is rather rude IMHO.
As for the internal/external thing, I agree with you that much of the time these terms have little value in and of themselves and are just used to prop oneself up/put others down.
I do also believe that there is a relatively quantifiable set of attributes/skills that can be found commonly among people who have developed some skill in 'internal' aspects of CMA and for which 'internal' has come to stand. If we replace 'XYZ is not internal' with 'XYZ does not possess those skills,' (which is how I understood the comment in question) it is also not a very nice thing to say.

[river rider]

the essence of both remarks is the idea that the teacher doesn't really know what he or she is doing, and in that sense either remark would be upsetting... however if you refashion either remark so its not a put-down of the instructor, there is a difference between the two statements... if you tell an internal stylist that he is practicing in an external way you are telling him either that he has failed to comprehend the essence of his art, or that he has not passed beyond a beginner's level in it. when you tell an external stylist that he is practicing in an internal way it does not necessarily mean the same thing, as a lot of the "external" arts believe in a progression from external to internal, as the practitioner ages, or even as the result of thoroughly mastering the "external" elements. I remember hearing this often when I practiced karate once-upon-a-time, and have heard similar things from friends who practiced hung gar and praying mantis styles... and have read it in books about a few other external styles.

[shawnsegler]

apes crave status...you can gauge a lot about human beings from that.

S- just sayin

[johnwang]

A guy walks toward another guy and knock the other guy out by one punch. How do you know that

- guy is "internal" or "external"?
- punch has Chi in it?
- punch uses body connection?

I don't know about you guys but I can't tell any difference from that 3 second action.

[river rider]

if internal vs external refers to the training method of the guy who knocked me out, it sure aint gonna matter to me, I'm down. if it refers to how he powered the punch, ditto... the difference will only matter to me to the extent in which one method or the other enables me to deliver a punch better or avoid being the guy knocked down.... there may be other benefits to me from practicing internally or externally, but that's outside the question of which of us is going to get knocked out, which has more to do with who has mastered his training . and there is no reason any of this has to be visible in the scenario johnwang describes