Dr. Yang leading the way

[origami_itto]

The subheading of this forum is "Internal Martial Arts Forum".

The day we stop talking about internal/external cannot come soon enough.

Thanks for the warm welcome.

The subheading for the internet is "weaponized pedantry".

Welcome to the fist.

[Kelley Graham]

Defining internal must be pursued each generation. Patiently, doggedly and with rational vigor. If adepts don't defend their intellectual property it will be lost. Once again I share this link. https://sifuondemand.com/what-internal

[Steve James]

Ultimately, I think one trains "internal" using "external" and vice versa, anyway. It'll come down to doing certain things in a certain way. Some people use pole shaking to develop "internal strength." Is it possible to develop internal martial arts skill without moving? Isn't it necessary to use external to express internal?

I'd say there's a way to train external or internal separately, but that's just training. Using requires both. I think the main reason many people don't want to discuss "internal" is that it's been done for decades, as long as there's been internet bulletin boards, yet there's never been any demonstration that internal is superior to external. And, ime, most of the tcc practitioners who've been successful have been called "just externalists calling what they do tcc."

Or, they say that doing x will prevent someone from getting q or z. Otoh, others --including everyone who doesn't do tcc-- will say they proof has to be shown in competition when it comes to martial art. So, the debates are just boring and go around in circles. A beginner, imo, is better off if they know exactly what they want (health, fitness, self-defense, tradition, etc) and then find a professor who has had success teaching what they want. Imo, it'd be better to waste a year and find out they weren't getting it than listen to the internet and be confused for a lifetime. The grass will never be green enough, if they listen to the internet.

[Kelley Graham]

... Imo, it'd be better to waste a year and find out they weren't getting it than listen to the internet and be confused for a lifetime. The grass will never be green enough, if they listen to the internet.

The internet is how information is shared, archived, generated and vetted. As time goes by, alternative sources, eg books and word of mouth, will become less influential. IMO, it is our responsibility is to provide relevant messaging in all media to the next generation. As marital artists we profess to like to fight the good fight, why would the internet be an arena from which we retreat? I'm certainly not suggesting that we all become IMAA policeman, but we should recognize that here on the fist we have an ongoing opportunity to maintain consistent messaging and provide an archive relatively safe discussion etc.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Thanks so much for sharing the videos. I had just been wondering the other day what had become of the project. Too bad it seems to have gone defunct. Did people finish the ten years of training first? The facilities looked better than I had imagined. Very cool of Yang to carry it out. His were among the first books on MA I had (I think his longfist book with a green cover).

[robert]

Being tired after training - or being so physically exhausted, so you can't even stand or feel like passing out - is quite normal in a lot of martial arts out there. Isn't it strange that it's so unusual in IMA

Yes it is, although it's not surprising that people with ability train hard. Here is something YZD wrote.

Past generations of youth had a certain foundation. When we practiced taijiquan, we got up before dawn, at 4 or 5 a.m. Not only did we practice taijiquan, but we also taught. There was no free time the whole day, all the way until evening when we couldn't move anymore. But, while practicing it was very comfortable. Doing the form one time commonly takes about 25 minutes now. In the past, we took 45 minutes to do the form, doing the form three times in a row each session. The transitional time between moves was longer, the postures were lower, and the moves were slower. It was very strenuous, even to the point that squatting on the toilet and climbing out of bed were not possible. We actually had to roll out of bed. It was very arduous.

But now it is not like past generations and that era has passed. Objectively speaking, during that time they had more actual combat experience. Tnere were push hands, two-person free-style tighting and individual practice, thus providing many practice and combat opportunities.

[Steve James]

Hey, I agree that the debate is generational. I'm not denying the need for discussion. In general, I'm saying that beginners will gain very little from debating what peng is as opposed to studying with someone. In terms of Yang's retreat, going into semi-isolation to be able to practice without distraction was the point.

I think the internet is a great resource for finding out where someone wants to study.

[Taste of Death]

Being tired after training - or being so physically exhausted, so you can't even stand or feel like passing out - is quite normal in a lot of martial arts out there. Isn't it strange that it's so unusual in IMA

One should always leave a rep or two in the bank. Having to lie down due to exhaustion should only happen after competition. I used to be a cross country and track & field coach. But you do need to test your limits to know them.

[Formosa Neijia]

Thanks so much for sharing the videos. I had just been wondering the other day what had become of the project. Too bad it seems to have gone defunct. Did people finish the ten years of training first? The facilities looked better than I had imagined. Very cool of Yang to carry it out. His were among the first books on MA I had (I think his longfist book with a green cover).

You're welcome. Yes, he seems to have completed the goal of training people for 10 years as this was the last year it was open, the guy in the top video was one of them and there are others but many more seem to have stayed for years if not fully 10. For live-in daily training that is a tremendous investment of time and resources and again, I'm amazed that they were able to pull that off.
The site was beautiful and Dr. Yang apparently had all the facilities custom-built for that purpose.

[Formosa Neijia]

The subheading of this forum is "Internal Martial Arts Forum".

The day we stop talking about internal/external cannot come soon enough.

Yes, thanks person with 6 posts. Some of us have been here since the year 2000. Perhaps you won't listen, but that line above from Phil B. is a hard-earned pearl of wisdom. Dr. Yang shot a couple of DVD sets of the basic training they did at the retreat so it could be preserved and passed on and I would highly recommend them or something along those lines. Whole body power is the way to train all the arts, internals are not an exception. What's shown in those clips at the top of the thread will provide a physical foundation for all the silk reeling, zhanzhuang, etc. that do nothing to create real power in your martial techniques. Silk reeling, etc. can be used to refine power but you have to have it first in order to refine it. Solid physical jibengong that involves lots of hard work and sweating will get that for you.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Thanks again.

Wow, that is a beautiful place. It's really something that Yang would do this for the love and longevity of the arts rather than for promotion or money.

[Formosa Neijia]

It's really something that Yang would do this for the love and longevity of the arts rather than for promotion or money.

Agreed. I'm not sure what they paid but it couldn't have been but a fraction of what it cost to buy and build an off-grid 243 acre complex in California so Yang must have footed the bill to some extent. And they did have several graduates of the ten year program from 2008-2018. Here is one talking about his experience:

I note that video production was one of the topics they discussed which is smart so that they can spread the arts more easily.

One of the things that amazes me watching all the videos of the various students that went through the retreat is the very high standards that Dr. Yang maintained. For example this is one of the best performances of the Yang style sanshou forms that I've seen and certainly the most lively one. Usually I see this done by people in their 70s and this was a breath of fresh air. I also would think the role of the conditioning in my initial post would be obvious in their performance here:

Note that she worked on that form for years and below the clip are notes of what she still needs to work on. The retreat was no vacation, obviously.

Part of what fascinates me about this is what it takes to build a community that leads to high level development. Dr. Yang obviously has that figured out.

[Kelley Graham]

Hey, I agree that the debate is generational. I'm not denying the need for discussion. In general, I'm saying that beginners will gain very little from debating what peng is as opposed to studying with someone. In terms of Yang's retreat, going into semi-isolation to be able to practice without distraction was the point.

I think the internet is a great resource for finding out where someone wants to study.

Yes. Talk does not cook rice. I was responding to the tone of the post as much as the text.

[phil b]

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of Shaw Brother wannabees suddenly cried out in terror and were forced to put down their green tea and defend their precious IMA.

I make no apologies for saying that the internal/external debate is BS. Coming on a forum to engage in pages of debate about the possible meaning of a classic contributes nothing of value to the arts. Internal has become a byword for lazy, overweight, unfit specimens to huff and puff about qi, peng, and assorted other buzz words without actually training with any effort.

I have been fortunate to study with some good teachers of both the "internal" and "external" arts. They are just different starting points on the same mountain. Hard training, such as the kind in the OP, is hugely important and beneficial on the path to acquiring skill.

Seriously... some of you need to get out of your bubble. Want to feel high level, practical tingjin in a non-compliant setting? Go do clinch work with a decent Thai boxer or roll with a BJJ player. Neither of these will care a jot about your classics or what some dude said hundreds of years ago.

[Kelley Graham]

i hope such comments aren't directed my way. the hardest work i've ever done, anywhere, has been, and continues to be, pursuing internal accomplishment. this includes training on broken bones and concussions throughout the late 70's and 80's. also less intense is competitive swimming and endurance training here in the desert. i've framed houses and poured concrete in Phoenix in the summers 115 degrees with 90%+ humidity. none can compare to the the suffering required for authentic internal development. i would prefer not being painted with a broad brush of thoughtless bias. to me these videos look like fun and provide solid foundational work.