Who IS the best TUISHOU expert ?

[AL2016]

In yichuan

Maybe master cuirin bin has really subtil gift and technic
:
CUIRUIBIN TUISHOU

https://youtu.be/iL7rVt05Mf8

7min 10 to
8min36 on one leg

https://youtu.be/Xuha03sTozQ

8min36 very tough and strong TUISHOU

HOW DO YOU SEE IT IF YOU ARE FROM TAICHI CHUAN?

[Appledog]

In yichuan (...)

HOW DO YOU SEE IT IF YOU ARE FROM TAICHI CHUAN?

Well did you have a particular question?

What is being shown here is categorically not push hands, but a form of sensitivity training/light sparring. That being said -- as a Tai Chi guy -- I see three general problems with what is being shown here.

One, there is no clearly defined place where the players are training peng, lu, ji, an, etc.
Push hands is a training exercise with extremely strict requirements, many of which are ignored by the amateur and adoptist traditions within the neigong area. I have often looked at Yiquan with wonder and bewilderment. It is clear from the writings of many of the yiquan revivalists in europe and others that peng, lu, ji, an are important components of YQ push hands. Yet they appear unaware how to train them. This bothers me because Yiquan does not train peng, lu, ji or an in the same way tai chi does and their definition of what they may mean is therefore skewed to the side of whatever Yiquan is "really trying to train", which is some kind of yiquan sensitivity (which is valid) but it is just confusing to even call this push hands, which it is not. What this appears to be is just some kind of competition sparring. Shirt breaks contact and jerks arms on and off several times, and shirtless shows several bad habits like hanging his arms off his opponent and curling his fingers in odd, energy-noncompliant ways. TBH I am not sure if anyone could really learn anything from this.

Two, it's just not Tai Chi.
The second you say ok, lets not go through the basics of tai chi push hands and skip to some kind of freeform push hands because we're an internal art and we get to train sensitivity and sticking and neutralization BUT we do it OUR way and not taiji's way -- then you have the problem that you never went through any kind of basic training to get to the freeform push hands level anyways. Along the way toss in all the beginner's mistakes such as losing contact, not following, going 'in for the kill' and so forth, and you have a real mess. I mean, since you asked, from a tai chi perspective this looks like a real mess. The players do not seem to have a clearly defined goal and seem to be making many mistakes.

Three, the players seem to be failing at what they are trying to accomplish. I.E. it's a bad demo.
One of my favorite TJQ push hands players to reference is Ma Yueh Liang because he has a large number of videos available and you can see how he has progressed throughout his life. For lack of a better explanation, I'd explain it like this, when you watch his videos and compare them you can see how he transitions his form -- using the same form and techniques -- into a smaller and smaller circle over his life, until when he is an older man his push hands appears magical. But it's not, if you're aware of what he's doing its just regular push hands but at a somewhat sublime level. I see nothing like this from this demo. There's no tai chi foundation here and it shows.

Giving CRB and this crowd the most respect possible, as it is obvious they have skills, I would posit that they have a large number of training exercises and so forth, some of which may be secret, but which are not shown here.

But from a Tai Chi guy's perspective if I ask someone to push hands with me and they try to form it like this, I don't care how skilled they are. This kind of form is not for teaching or learning, it's for a master to demonstrate skill to a beginner such that the beginner isn't shown how to train push hands and therefore has his options limited to 2: learn from the master or not learn (ex. on his own). I believe this is being done because in the modern day everyone really knows tai chi, lets be honest the 24 is a really good form and tai chi is really popular, anyone can learn it for free in a park if they want, so the secrecy moved towards push hhands. Everyone tries to show you this BS kind of push hands because if they just did the regular push hands then just touching hands is like a free lesson and people gotta eat.

Just my speculation.

[yeniseri]

Just throwing these names out!
Wei Shuren, Wang Yongquan, and the many Wu style teachers (Quanyu line).

These are not meant to be the ALL of tuishou excellent practitioners

[AL2016]

APPLEDOG THANKS for your answer

What is being shown here is categorically not push hands, but a form of sensitivity training/light sparring. That being said -- as a Tai Chi guy -- I see three general problems with what is being shown here.


Hère m'y article if thé différence between yichuan and taichi
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-diff ... srid=uvbUv

You know very well yichuan and master Wang story?


One, there is no clearly defined place where the players are training peng, lu, ji, an, etc.
Push hands is a training exercise with extremely strict requirements, many of which are ignored by the amateur and adoptist traditions within the neigong area. I have often looked at Yiquan with wonder and bewilderment. It is clear from the writings of many of the yiquan revivalists in europe and others that peng, lu, ji, an are important components of YQ push hands. Yet they appear unaware how to train them. This bothers me because Yiquan does not train peng, lu, ji or an in the same way tai chi does and their definition of what they may mean is therefore skewed to the side of whatever Yiquan is "really trying to train", which is some kind of yiquan sensitivity (which is valid) but it is just confusing to even call this push hands, which it is not. What this appears to be is just some kind of competition sparring. Shirt breaks contact and jerks arms on and off several times, and shirtless shows several bad habits like hanging his arms off his opponent and curling his fingers in odd, energy-noncompliant ways. TBH I am not sure if anyone could really learn anything from this.


Yes i train yichuan 5 years very intensivily with master ming Shan in France an ex disciple of master CUI
tuishou in yichuan use a lot of muscular force

Then i trained in TAICHI little bit with master wong tun ken who IS also Bagua expert

His tuishou was really more subtle

Two, it's just not Tai Chi.
The second you say ok, lets not go through the basics of tai chi push hands and skip to some kind of freeform push hands because we're an internal art and we get to train sensitivity and sticking and neutralization BUT we do it OUR way and not taiji's way -- then you have the problem that you never went through any kind of basic training to get to the freeform push hands level anyways. Along the way toss in all the beginner's mistakes such as losing contact, not following, going 'in for the kill' and so forth, and you have a real mess. I mean, since you asked, from a tai chi perspective this looks like a real mess. The players do not seem to have a clearly defined goal and seem to be making many mistakes.

Three, the players seem to be failing at what they are trying to accomplish. I.E. it's a bad demo.
One of my favorite TJQ push hands players to reference is Ma Yueh Liang because he has a large number of videos available and you can see how he has progressed throughout his life. For lack of a better explanation, I'd explain it like this, when you watch his videos and compare them you can see how he transitions his form -- using the same form and techniques -- into a smaller and smaller circle over his life, until when he is an older man his push hands appears magical. But it's not, if you're aware of what he's doing its just regular push hands but at a somewhat sublime level. I see nothing like this from this demo. There's no tai chi foundation here and it shows.

I prefer Chen family tuishou liké master chen yu
Master fengzhiqiang or chenzhiqiang because in Yang taichi there IS too much submission and complice or the disciple that IS submit like a goat
I Can admit it s a way of training but all vidéo youtube are same, not even one with a little of contact or shaking

Giving CRB and this crowd the most respect possible, as it is obvious they have skills, I would posit that they have a large number of training exercises and so forth, some of which may be secret, but which are not shown here.

But from a Tai Chi guy's perspective if I ask someone to push hands with me and they try to form it like this, I don't care how skilled they are. This kind of form is not for teaching or learning, it's for a master to demonstrate skill to a beginner such that the beginner isn't shown how to train push hands and therefore has his options limited to 2: learn from the master or not learn (ex. on his own). I believe this is being done because in the modern day everyone really knows tai chi, lets be honest the 24 is a really good form and tai chi is really popular, anyone can learn it for free in a park if they want, so the secrecy moved towards push hhands. Everyone tries to show you this BS kind of push hands because if they just did the regular push hands then just touching hands is like a free lesson and people to eat.


But you think master ma tue liang would have efficiency if a wrestler shake him for Real or it s not important for you?

Just my speculation.
Appledog
Huajing

[yeniseri]

Agreed!
I see the process and steps but that structure is exactly what is lacking to progress to that "higher plane" of what is called toishou/roushou/etc

We are both seein the same thing but on unique levels, which is OK

[AL2016]

You mean yichuan IS not enought subtil ?

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8_m1p8RCew

Foreign martial arts and Tai Chi push hands masters and enthusiasts visited Beijing Shaoyaoju Push Hands Garden

Recent examples of push hands Beijing

[wayne hansen]

Do we know the two white guys in this clip

[AL2016]

It s a inter style tuishou meeting ?

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXuyWNMtW6M&t=689s

Tai Chi push hand cross-border communication, another development direction of tai Chi push hand actual combat, adapt to social needs, multiple paths parallel development, chuan Wu Tai Chi, the folk foundation is strong.Sports.

[Doc Stier]

Oof! Why are wrestling matches being labeled as tui-shou?

[AL2016]

Ok thanks

[windwalker]

Oof! Why are wrestling matches being labeled as tui-shou?

Because thats what they call it

It's how they practice it, what they use to judge skill sets developed from it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyN3HZHBBpo

Gao Xiaobo is the fifth generation of Yang taijiquan. He was warmly welcomed when he had the opportunity to exchange with the folk pusher in Beijing Park. Gao Xiaobo has won the national champion of the most heavyweight competitive pusher for many times and the heavyweight boxing champion of Hebei Province.Sports.

It may not follow others practices nor accord with some who use the same method for different ends....developing different skill sets...

Whether this is good for the art as a whole or is not, a personal observation.

[wayne hansen]

Just confirms what I thought of the other clip of that park
Not much skill there
I would love to see film of him boxing
Do they mean western boxing or Kung fu

[AL2016]

OK thanks