A simple and practical method

[Bao]

Personally, I don't believe in throwing "half punches", weak jabs and similar. An attack should always be committed and always look like a committed attack, even if you want to use it as a feint or set-up. Half-assed attacks will only give an experienced opponent a chance to launch real attacks and put pressure on you. But you want force your opponent to retreat so you can continue attacking, forcing him to continue to defend himself.

[GrahamB]

Personally, I don't believe in throwing "half punches", weak jabs and similar. An attack should always be committed and always look like a committed attack, even if you want to use it as a feint or set-up. Half-assed attacks will only give an experienced opponent a chance to launch real attacks and put pressure on you. But you want force your opponent to retreat so you can continue attacking, forcing him to continue to defend himself.

That is, frankly, terrible advice.

[rojcewiczj]

I find that the general issue with applying CMA is undervaluing position and posture when it comes to attack and defense. CMA's are famously strict on posture, how the back is positioned and how you move through postures without sacrificing integrity. Of course this mentality doesn't make much sense if you value generating force over positional dominance and reduction of your opponents attacking force. The perfect example comes from the Karate world. When you look at Okinawan karate forms, they have the same mentality as CMA. When you look at karate fighters in compition, MMA, etc. they are essentially kickboxing (borrowed from Savate some say). When I try to put forward a CMA traditional way of approaching combat. Many people come back with what is essentially a modern sport fighting mentality (combos, feinting, jab - cross etc,). If we expected a wrestler to defend themselves using a jab-cross instead of a double-leg takedown, wouldn't that be strange? Similarly, CMA has it own methodology when it comes to engaging the opponent, which I believe is rooted in engaging the opponent with your back, with your whole structure, before trying to use any specific technique.

[Bao]

Personally, I don't believe in throwing "half punches", weak jabs and similar. An attack should always be committed and always look like a committed attack, even if you want to use it as a feint or set-up. Half-assed attacks will only give an experienced opponent a chance to launch real attacks and put pressure on you. But you want force your opponent to retreat so you can continue attacking, forcing him to continue to defend himself.

That is, frankly, terrible advice.

Lol!

Well, ask people as Mike Tyson, his main tactic was to attack and attack, trying to knock out his opponents as fast as possible. Or Bruce Lee, well, he is dead, take look at his writings. He made the same advice, that a feint should look like a real attack. Or watch the Gracies in the original UFC. Their tactic was to just go straight in for a shoot. I think I never saw any feints there, they just went it fully committed and it worked about every time.

... Oh, and by the way, Jack Dempsey hated the type of poking jabs seen today as well.

"Best of all the punches is the "stepping straight jolt," delivered with either fist from the "falling step." It has fall, spring and whirl.
That stepping jolt must not be confused with the "ordinary straight punch" that is delivered at medium range without moving the feet, and that depends almost entirely on shoulder whirl. The stepping jolt is a much more explosive blow.

...

I use the expression "left jolt" instead of "left jab" because I don't want you to confuse the type of straight left you will throw, with the futile straight left or "jab" used by most current amateur and professional boxers. Most of them couldn't knock your hat off with their left jabs. With their lefts, they tap, they slap, they flick, they paw, they "paint." Their jabs are used more to confuse than to stun.

Their jabs are used as fluttering defensive flags to prevent their poorly instructed opponents from "getting set to punch." A good fighter doesn't have to "get set." He's always ready to punch. Some of them use their jabs merely to make openings for their rights. And that's dangerously silly, for the proper brand of feinting would accomplish the same purpose. "

https://newschoolsinger.com/wp-content/ ... ting-1.pdf

So, the masters have spoken. What you say couldn't bother me much, you don't understand a shit.

[wayne hansen]

Never confuse a real combat situation with ring craft
A good sport fighter can always be a good street fighter
Those who do not have the skill of a sport fighter should not try their tactics in a real confrontation

[GrahamB]

[Bhassler]

I still think that anyone who believes they can neutralize a strike purely via body motion should stand with their eyes closed and let someone (preferably a wife or girlfriend) slap them in the face as hard as they can. Proceed to neutralize and report back (video would be better).

[windwalker]

I still think that anyone who believes they can neutralize a strike purely via body motion should stand with their eyes closed and let someone (preferably a wife or girlfriend) slap them in the face as hard as they can. Proceed to neutralize and report back (video would be better).

Or it might be the case for those suggesting this.

They my not understand some of the theory by which some of it is said to work

To attempt to neutralize the strike after it makes contact, is already too late....
One should be able to sense and neutralize the "intent"
preceding the strike....

For many they may not have the development they feel they have concerning this aspect.
Besides getting slapped there are other ways of testing it...

Master Fung: Now your on the right track. Field strength exercises will help develop the proper timing for using Hunyuan strength against an opponent. The basic idea is to intercept the opponents intent so he ends up receiving not only your strength but a reflection of his strength as well.

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/empty-force/

A good explanation although there seems to be some aspects he doesn't touch on....

Main point : A strike or hit, has already occurred before the actual event.

before
during
after

timing

The O.O.D.A. Loop is a process we go through hundreds if not thousands of times in a single day. It is a process that defines how we humans react to stimulus.

One can retrain the reaction stimulus.

[rojcewiczj]

I still think that anyone who believes they can neutralize a strike purely via body motion should stand with their eyes closed and let someone (preferably a wife or girlfriend) slap them in the face as hard as they can. Proceed to neutralize and report back (video would be better).

Head movement is body movement, it comes from moving the spine. That how you neutralize strikes, by moving your spine, which includes you head. The point is that CMA is based on maximizing the backs ability to neutralize the opponents force through appropriate actions, including evasion.

[Steve James]

Afa the jab, there are several heavyweight boxing champions who depended on it, including Ali -who also fought the boxer with the best left hook three times. Yet, Ali's one time sparring partner (Larry Holmes) had the best jab in boxing history. Some trainers will tell a beginner that the jab is the most important strike in boxing because it sets everything else up.

Anyway, afa the body, it's part of the system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldAgO824Bv0

[johnwang]

That how you neutralize strikes, by moving your spine, which includes you head. The point is that CMA is based on maximizing the backs ability to neutralize the opponents force through appropriate actions, including evasion.

The concern is if you only use body method to dodge a punch without moving your feet, your opponent may attack your leg (since your legs are not moving). If you use footwork to dodge a punch, your body method won't matter that much (since the distance has changed).

In the following clip, no matter how one may move their spine (without moving their feet), the other can always get the other's leading leg.

[Bhassler]

I still think that anyone who believes they can neutralize a strike purely via body motion should stand with their eyes closed and let someone (preferably a wife or girlfriend) slap them in the face as hard as they can. Proceed to neutralize and report back (video would be better).

Head movement is body movement, it comes from moving the spine. That how you neutralize strikes, by moving your spine, which includes you head. The point is that CMA is based on maximizing the backs ability to neutralize the opponents force through appropriate actions, including evasion.

If you define "spine movement" broadly enough to include stepping or, in fact, all movement of the body, then your model will be both accurate and not very useful. It may be helpful to an individual to think of things that way in their own mental vernacular, but if you make blanket statements like "CMA is based on maximizing the back's ability to neutralize", then you're automatically going off the rails into language that sounds pretty but doesn't really help anyone. You've essentially just replaced terms like "dantian" or "chi" with something that appeals to your own world view.

[Bhassler]

I still think that anyone who believes they can neutralize a strike purely via body motion should stand with their eyes closed and let someone (preferably a wife or girlfriend) slap them in the face as hard as they can. Proceed to neutralize and report back (video would be better).

Or it might be the case for those suggesting this. :-\

They my not understand some of the theory by which some of it is said to work

To attempt to neutralize the strike after it makes contact, is already too late....
One should be able to sense and neutralize the "intent"
preceding the strike....

For many they may not have the development they feel they have concerning this aspect.
Besides getting slapped there are other ways of testing it...

Master Fung: Now your on the right track. Field strength exercises will help develop the proper timing for using Hunyuan strength against an opponent. The basic idea is to intercept the opponents intent so he ends up receiving not only your strength but a reflection of his strength as well.

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/empty-force/

A good explanation although there seems to be some aspects he doesn't touch on....

Main point : A strike or hit, has already occurred before the actual event.

before
during
after

timing

The O.O.D.A. Loop is a process we go through hundreds if not thousands of times in a single day. It is a process that defines how we humans react to stimulus.

One can retrain the reaction stimulus.

Sounds like basic self-defense stuff, in the sense that attacks don't happen "out of nowhere"-- there are usually identifiable reasons, and even when there are not, there are warning indications. It sounds really esoteric when phrased in terms of "sensing intent," etc., but it's something we all do at some level, and in no way particular to internal or Asian martial arts.

In the context of sports, the social cues/distractions are removed, but are replaced by more refined technique (including mechanics, of course, but also hiding what you plan, setting things up, etc.)

[johnwang]

I still think that anyone who believes they can neutralize a strike purely via body motion should stand with their eyes closed and let someone (preferably a wife or girlfriend) slap them in the face as hard as they can. Proceed to neutralize and report back (video would be better).

Agree with you 100% there. If you have to neutralize a strike, you may allow that strike to be too close to you. Why don't you just interrupt that strike while that strike is still far away from you?

The CMA has:

1. metal strategy - knife cut wood
2. water strategy - yield/stick/neutralize.
3. ...

[rojcewiczj]

If you define "spine movement" broadly enough to include stepping or, in fact, all movement of the body, then your model will be both accurate and not very useful. It may be helpful to an individual to think of things that way in their own mental vernacular, but if you make blanket statements like "CMA is based on maximizing the back's ability to neutralize", then you're automatically going off the rails into language that sounds pretty but doesn't really help anyone. You've essentially just replaced terms like "dantian" or "chi" with something that appeals to your own world view.

The usefulness lies within the methodology I tried to describe in the initial post. Its not about moving your back/dantian/or chi in such a way as to generate power, but in such a way as to create disadvantage for your opponent on contact. This means minding your position and your engagement relative to your back. First of all you mind your position relative to your back and seek to undermine your opponent by changing that position relative to their actions. Your limbs act as extensions of the passive/positional power of your back. You never worry about generating force, you only concern yourself with adjusting your position, including limbs, to your opponent. The power is in shutting down your opponents actions, not purely in the force you generate.

I think that people who are interested in generating more force, should get into another martial art tradition. I don't doubt that Jack Dempsey or Mike Tyson were maximizing the force of there punchs. Given the difference in CMA's from the boxing of Tyson or Ali or whoever, you can understand that CMA doesnt have the same goal in a punch as boxing. Getting hit by a CMA punch should be like falling on a spear thats stuck in the ground, the spear didnt launch at you but you still get stabbed. I find it strange that people on the forum look to western boxing for their wisdom, when you can go to a boxing forum and talk about boxing.

To reiterate, CMA at its best is much closer to a kind of wrestling system, then it is to boxing/kickboxing in a modern sense. The postures of the forms can neutralize, entangle, disrupt, throw down and more if you are flexible enough in adjusting your back and overall position to your opponents action.