A simple and practical method

[marvin8]

If you define "spine movement" broadly enough to include stepping or, in fact, all movement of the body, then your model will be both accurate and not very useful. It may be helpful to an individual to think of things that way in their own mental vernacular, but if you make blanket statements like "CMA is based on maximizing the back's ability to neutralize", then you're automatically going off the rails into language that sounds pretty but doesn't really help anyone. You've essentially just replaced terms like "dantian" or "chi" with something that appeals to your own world view.

The usefulness lies within the methodology I tried to describe in the initial post. Its not about moving your back/dantian/or chi in such a way as to generate power, but in such a way as to create disadvantage for your opponent on contact. This means minding your position and your engagement relative to your back. First of all you mind your position relative to your back and seek to undermine your opponent by changing that position relative to their actions. Your limbs act as extensions of the passive/positional power of your back. You never worry about generating force, you only concern yourself with adjusting your position, including limbs, to your opponent. The power is in shutting down your opponents actions, not purely in the force you generate.

I think that people who are interested in generating more force, should get into another martial art tradition. I don't doubt that Jack Dempsey or Mike Tyson were maximizing the force of there punchs. Given the difference in CMA's from the boxing of Tyson or Ali or whoever, you can understand that CMA doesnt have the same goal in a punch as boxing. Getting hit by a CMA punch should be like falling on a spear thats stuck in the ground, the spear didnt launch at you but you still get stabbed. I find it strange that people on the forum look to western boxing for their wisdom, when you can go to a boxing forum and talk about boxing.

To reiterate, CMA at its best is much closer to a kind of wrestling system, then it is to boxing/kickboxing in a modern sense. The postures of the forms can neutralize, entangle, disrupt, throw down and more if you are flexible enough in adjusting your back and overall position to your opponents action.

Lately, I've been finding a good amount of success teaching people a simple method or CMA. The first step is to move your back until the opponent becomes light for a moment, then you can attack with everything and anything you can.

Is this not rollback/press (lu, ji)? That is similar mechanics to the pull counter in boxing, MMA, etc. Mike Tyson and Dempsey did not just attack. They used feints, pull counter, defense, etc. Many people DKSAB.

The first step is to move (e.g., fold, open, close) your kua (inguinal crease), then your back/shoulder/waist rotates for defense and offense via weight shifting. This method is not exclusive to CMA. Although, there may be other methods.

Excerpts from "DISTINGUISHING THE HIP AND WAIST:"

While kua can be translated directly as hip it refers more to the hip-crease (inguinal crease), the natural fold which stretches up diagonally, outward from the perineum-huiyin, to the juncture between the top of the hip bone and the base of the outer pelvis. It runs along the same path as the inguinal ligament. Obviously there is one kua for each leg but it can be helpful to note that both kua stem from the same place, the huiyin. Realizing this, it is much easier to be consistently aware of the natural movement of the hip-crease as it opens and closes. ...

We do not try to move the hips in relation to force but, like the axle of a wheel, allow them to rotate as a matter of course. Usually it is the passive rotation into one hip which causes the passive rotation out of the other hip. This is often described as folding the hip or kua.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR8nt1aDHLQ

[rojcewiczj]

I'm not trying to criticize boxing or say that the use of the back to neutralize force is unique to CMA. I'm simply trying to speak about an approach that actually makes use of CMA postures and movements and that I find helps people get something practical and enjoyable out of CMA. I think settling and opening the hips for freedom of movement is key to release the back for movement and adjustment. What I find to be most lacking however in the general mentality, is the methodology for replacing force generation with posture placement/positioning. Many people trying to use their hips to move their body more explosively, but, in my experience, its much more appropriate in using CMA to emphasize positioning and how your back can nullify your opponents force if you adjust correctly.

One formula I go by in training this way is : Have a movement of the limbs for every movement of the back, have a movement of the back for every movement of the limbs'.
The key thing is to not use the back to generate acceleration on the limbs but rather to simply adjust/change the position.

[Bhassler]

Not all CMA is the same, so it's kind of silly to say that all CMA is about a single concept. Some arts, like Tongbei or Baji, seem to quite obviously emphasize generating a lot of power. Or you could look at subsystems of a broader art, like Feeding Crane as compared to Whooping Crane. Even within a single substyle of an art, like (whatever style) taiji, there are methods for generating big power and others for borrowing the opponents power. Some do both at the same time, or sequentially, in the same move.

Moving outside of CMA, there are boxers like Floyd Mayweather* who has been dominant in the sport for a long time and who is not known for his power-- rather, he's known for his defense and being able to use posture and positioning to create a disadvantage for his opponent. Whatever approach you want to take is fine, and I think a lot of people agree that power is only one part of the equation (frequently not even close to the most important part). But to generalize a single approach to all of CMA is both a bit arrogant and also very limiting of the material contained within even a single art.



*In addition to being an excellent boxer, Floyd Mayweather is also a piece of shit who beats up women and then uses the money he made beating up other professional athletes to buy his way out of trouble.

[johnwang]

how your back can nullify your opponents force if you adjust correctly.

Are you dealing with

- a punch on the face, or
- a push on the chest?

[Steve James]

Yeah, I tend to agree that it might be better to compare much of modern tcc to wrestling. But, I'm not sure anyone thinks tcc people would win wrestling competitions with any higher frequency than they would boxing, kickboxing, or muay thai competitions. That's not to say that any given tcc practitioner couldn't win in any of those competitions either.

Btw, I didn't bring up western boxing. I was responding to ideas about the boxer's jab. Afa it's connection to tcc applications, all I can say is that the art of western boxing is defense, but it also has a systematic method of attack. It's much more likely you'll have a conflict with a boxer than a tcc person. So, understanding a little about it can come in handy.

This thread is about a simple, practical method. Haven't we all watched videos where someone who doesn't look especially skillful smacks around a tcc person who can't seem to avoid getting hit in the head. And, it doesn't turn into a grappling or wrestling match before it's stopped. So, I'm also saying that if they'd studied shuai jiao or sanda, it might have helped.

[windwalker]

A demo that covers some of the aspects mentioned...
The type of power developed, method and delivery system quite different from other arts, allowing options based on them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgkaJCs8Q-4&t=192s

[windwalker]

Moving outside of CMA, there are boxers like Floyd Mayweather* who has been dominant in the sport for a long time and who is not known for his power-- rather, he's known for his defense and being able to use posture and positioning to create a disadvantage for his opponent.

Comment edited: focused on some of the same aspects noted by a CMA public practitioner / teacher

Demos Floyd Maywather, showing comparable examples of power generation in CMA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I69RGg0wVGM

[rojcewiczj]

While I dont mean to say that what I think is the definitive truth on the matter. I will go a head and offer what I think is the truth without watering it down in the spirit of not being relativistic about CMA. Meaning, I do want to offer my take on the reality of CMA. That being said, styles like Baji and white-crane, and whatever style, when it is emphasizing generating force, its essentially trying to maximize a low level of martial art skill. When I say low level, I mean that its lower than a positional, spatial approach. At every stage of advancement, failure is a very real option. Many fail to obtain physical strength and the ability to generate power due to laziness of spirit and body, cowardliness, etc. And many more than that fail to obtain the indirect power that comes through separation, detachment, half of you being able to fight while half of you only moves/takes positions. When I deal with boxing/kickboxing, for instance a punch to the head, I generally move my back down and to the side and in at the opponent as I attack. When dealing with wrestlers, by dropping down and forward between their arms with my back before attacking, or stepping back and own when they hug my legs or body, rotating backwards before attacking . Offensively, I often move down and towards the outside as I deflect/evade and the moment my knee gets to the outside of their knee, I attack, sending them falling over my leg. I say these things mainly to illustrate that thinking positionally about your attacks over time means that strategies naturally form that can resolve situations; not just concepts, raw force, or unnecessary complexity but real positional maneuvers that maximize the effect of your attack/force. I believe there's a lot to be gained from CMA that is essentially dormant, during and after the modern age, do to the lack of properly distinguishing the elements of a CMA movement and failing to see the positional, postural, spatial element of a movement as distinct from the direct attack/force.

[marvin8]

While I dont mean to say that what I think is the definitive truth on the matter. I will go a head and offer what I think is the truth without watering it down in the spirit of not being relativistic about CMA. Meaning, I do want to offer my take on the reality of CMA. That being said, styles like Baji and white-crane, and whatever style, when it is emphasizing generating force, its essentially trying to maximize a low level of martial art skill. When I say low level, I mean that its lower than a positional, spatial approach. At every stage of advancement, failure is a very real option. Many fail to obtain physical strength and the ability to generate power due to laziness of spirit and body, cowardliness, etc. And many more than that fail to obtain the indirect power that comes through separation, detachment, half of you being able to fight while half of you only moves/takes positions. When I deal with boxing/kickboxing, for instance a punch to the head, I generally move my back down and to the side and in at the opponent as I attack. When dealing with wrestlers, by dropping down and forward between their arms with my back before attacking, or stepping back and own when they hug my legs or body, rotating backwards before attacking . Offensively, I often move down and towards the outside as I deflect/evade and the moment my knee gets to the outside of their knee, I attack, sending them falling over my leg. I say these things mainly to illustrate that thinking positionally about your attacks over time means that strategies naturally form that can resolve situations; not just concepts, raw force, or unnecessary complexity but real positional maneuvers that maximize the effect of your attack/force. I believe there's a lot to be gained from CMA that is essentially dormant, during and after the modern age, do to the lack of properly distinguishing the elements of a CMA movement and failing to see the positional, postural, spatial element of a movement as distinct from the direct attack/force.

Opening/closing a relaxed kua can put one's whole body into position to defend and attack. Naseem Hamed shows an example twice—the second time issuing a check hook.

Naseem's combo:

1. From a relaxed neutral position, Naseem throws a jab to draw an opponent's jab (yin).
2. Naseem folds his front kua bringing his head and weight to the front foot (sink)—slipping the opponent's jab (yield).
3. Naseem folds his rear kua to transfer head and weight to the back foot while issuing (fa) a check hook.

Note: Every time the kua folds (storing elastic energy) it puts a trained fighter (head/whole body) into a different position to defend, issue, control, lure, etc.

However starting at 11:10, Naseem shows how he generates power which is documented in another video too. Naseem loads his front foot by slipping and shifting his weight to the front foot, taking his head off line. Then, he transfers his weight to the back foot, coordinating his hook with the rear heel landing.

[everything]

it's always a bit amusing when someone random compares himself to a GOAT in a sport ("hey i do this thing mayweather/messi/jordan/tiger does too ... i must be a genius as well") but sure, why wouldn't those xingyi moves be good if one trained them well? if you imitate those guys' moves, you will get better. plain and simple. you just won't ever in 100 lifetimes reach their level.

[windwalker]

it's always a bit amusing when someone random compares himself to a GOAT in a sport ("hey i do this thing mayweather/messi/jordan/tiger does too ... i must be a genius as well") but sure, why wouldn't those xingyi moves be good if one trained them well? if you imitate those guys' moves, you will get better. plain and simple.
you just won't ever in 100 lifetimes reach their level.

Referencing the clip, the teacher was using "Maywather" as an example of movements that are very similar if not the same as what is practiced in xingyi...
The teacher stressed he had never trained in western boxing nor was he a boxer....His movements based on his own practice, not something copied.

The teacher posed rhetorical questions whether modern CMA practitioners could develop the actual techniques and abilities of past masters,
wondering if this would happen again in modern times.

why wouldn't those xingyi moves be good if one trained them well?

As with anything aside from training, natural talent is a factor.

you just won't ever in 100 lifetimes reach their level

How do you know, what level others have reached or not....does it matter ?

[origami_itto]

Not everybody that goes into business turns out like Jeff Bezos, but plenty enough manage to make a living.

[wayne hansen]

Sure natural talent helps but as CMC says it is the least of the 3 requirements
Right method (good teacher) and
Persistance are more important
Let me say it once more
T’ai chi is literally passed on from hand to hand
If your teacher dosent have it there is no way to acquire it

[johnwang]

to compare much of modern tcc to wrestling.

Wrestling uses footwork to deal with the in coming force. There is no argument about the spine rotation/yielding, the only concern is the footwork that is not addressed in this discussion.

In the following clip, the "stealing step" is used along with the spine rotation.

[rojcewiczj]

I definitely believe that footwork is very valuable, but that the only way to know if the footwork is useful is to understand the footwork as facilitating the position of the back. The better your footwork, the more easily you can maneuver your back, opening up more tactical freedom. Often I find CMA people practice a lot of stances and stepping patterns but, because they don't understand how a stance change or step effects your position relative to an opponent, they end up misunderstanding or, more often, throwing the traditional stepping out entirely.