“Internal” body training and non-complimentary activities

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: “Internal” body training and non-complimentary activities

Postby everything on Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:00 pm

there is so much known about "exercise science", body mechanics, strength and conditioning, etc. now.

there is also increasing knowledge about meditation. they know there are physical changes to the brain. to paraphrase, you get more grey and white matter in the areas of the brain that are good at focus. it also seems obvious what the practical benefits might be.

for the bit about "internal" not having two people who agree, that's not true. if we look at what Sun said (Sun since he seems to have coined neijia) or what Wang Xiangzhai said, or what Yang Chengfu said, there is clear commonality. if we are talking about two random joe schmos, sure, everyone is clueless. why would we take two joe schmos not agreeing and conclude something about "internal"? that makes no sense. just like we wouldn't ask two idiots to explain vaccines or to explain how Physics will unify its theories. if we want to explain how Einstein is wrong or only partially correct, we will have to understand his ideas first. making up our own b.s. or riffing off of what two joe schmos said ... well ... :-\ :-[ :'(

getting back to the topic, why wouldn't we want to do all three? of course we would. move well, have more focus, have energy that helps even more. if xingyiquan came from spear usage, wouldn't one need to be quite strong to wield the spear? or if we were ancient monks not doing MA, we can't sit around meditating all day. there would be chores to do: "before Zen, fetch water, chop wood. After Zen, fetch water, chop wood." it's hard to imagine why we wouldn't want some strength. is the objection: don't take steroids and be Arnold? b/c we don't need "internal" in the picture to agree with that.
Last edited by everything on Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: “Internal” body training and non-complimentary activities

Postby Appledog on Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:40 am

everything wrote:for the bit about "internal" not having two people who agree, that's not true. if we look at what Sun said (Sun since he seems to have coined neijia) or what Wang Xiangzhai said, or what Yang Chengfu said, there is clear commonality. if we are talking about two random joe schmos, sure, everyone is clueless.


So here we are, and our teachers are retired. That means we're supposed to be the next generation. We are supposed to be the top masters. But the reality is that for better or worse "our generation", meaning specifically westerners who made a decent shot at getting into the game -- either weren't taught the real stuff or just didn't practice hard enough, or whatever, and now we have tai chi classes where you learn the sword form after the long form and never practice push hands. We are the new joe schmos. But some of us aren't. Unfortunately, in this day and age showing up is 9/10ths of the law and you have people who are running schools but have poor form and no skills. It's a lament often heard by many but again, some of us are not Joe. How do you not be Joe, is simply by understanding the truth.

By the time of the Zhou Dynasty in 1000BC, the ancient arts of jiao3 di3, or "horn butting" had been refined into jiao3 li4 (wrestling). As recorded in early works such as the Li Ji (book of rites) these arts included not just strikes and kicks but joint locks and attacks on pressure points.

Within a scant few hundred years of this development, the Huangdi Neijing (Medical Classic of the Yellow Emperor) was published late in the Warring States Period (likely after the Zhou dynasty so after 220 BC) and possibly as late as the Han Dynasty (before 220 CE). Exactly at this time (140-220) we also encounter Hua Tou, who almost certainly knew the Huangdi Neijing well, it's inconceivable that he did not.

Now, in the background we have the development of the Daoyin Tu. Remember the development between Jiao ti and Jiao di? In 1606BC King Ma of Dai county was buried with a copy of the daoyin tu. Based of what we know of Daoyin and qigong today it is now possible to infer that the theory of qi circulation was applied to martial arts more than 3,000 years ago. Hua Tou's development seems to have been to extend the idea of daoyin into "qigong" -- but this is only on the surface. What Hua Tou is more likely to have done is to repackage daoyin and some kind of existing qigong into something suitable for sale to the public. For we also have unearthed at mawangdui books such as the Que Gu Shi Qi Pian (Fasting and taking Qi), which describes the how the methods of daoyin are used to guide qi. Also extant at Hua Tou's time are books such as the stretch book (yinshu, 186bc) which describe around 100 daoyin exercises.

"Breathing in and out in various manners, spitting out the old and taking in the new, walking like a bear and stretching their neck like a bird to achieve longevity - this is what such practitioners of Daoyin, cultivators of the body and all those searching for long life like Ancestor Peng, enjoy." (Chuang Tzu, circa 300BC).

What began with Hua Tou flowered in the Sui and Tang dynasties, (581 to 907) where these practices became widespread in clinical application. We have many books from this period such as the "Zhu Bing Yuan Hou Lun" (General Treatise on the Causes and Symptoms of Diseases), which link the practices of daoyin to internal medicine (qi), accupressure and accupuncture. We also have dozens of books from this time period about Laozi massage, and Qigong prerscriptions for various diseases. It is interesting that these arts became so extremely popular exactly during the old days of the Shaolin temple. But historicity aside, the geography is interesting. Dengfeng, Shaolin, Chen village, etc. is at the center of the Xian-Shanghai corridor and the focal point of a great many events; the dispersal of Yue Fei's army into the mountains, Big scholar tree, look around and you will see closeby lots of familiar names from tai chi, xingyi and bagua legends. This area became a melting pot for theories and arts. Many stories exist of shaolin and other arts turning ecclectic, performing a survey of extant arts, and comign up with something new. But who was first? Maybe it doesn't matter who was really first, but for a moment let's return to Hua tou.

The most interesting thing about Hua Tuo in relation to the Shaolin story, is that he is suspected to have studied Ayurvedic medical techniques from buddhist missionaries in China, due to the proximity of said missionaries and similarity of his knowledge and teachings which seem to have retained an Ayurvedic quality to them. Hua Tuo lived in Jiangxi and Shandong provinces, both of which are to the east (and neighbor) Shanxi. Shandong, home of Shaolin, is just south of Shanxi, and Southwest of Shandong and Jiangxi. Together they form a somewhat circular clump and are basically all neighbors.

Thus, re-examining the Shaolin story, we see from historical record that the Shaolin monastery was built between 477 and 495 CE, that the first Abbot of Shaolin was Batuo, and that martial arts (fighting) of some kind was already a part of the monk's training because Huigang and Sengchou are known from the Buddhist canon to posess skills in martial arts. In 527 AD, Damo came to Shaolin to teach buddhism, and his disciple Huike was also a highly trained martial arts expert. How and where these martial arts came from is also merely a matter of historical record. The records state the monks practiced at least the jiao li arts, and another art known as shou bu which basically amounted to a form of stand-up fist boxing. The origin of these arts is considered well-known in that they can be traced back to the ancient practices we have mentioned.

To close off the Hua Tou-Shaolin period let us reiterate what we know -- what is pubic knowledge and see if the peices fit. By Damo's time, the monks had already developed an art called "Xin Yi Ba", which by historical record consisted of the practical movements of general farming and cleaning (such as carrying buckets of water, sweeping a broom, shoveling, etc) into a sort of fighting art that they used to defend themselves against wild animals. At the exact same time, by the end of the Northern Wei dynasty (around 495 CE), Shuai Jiao had been canonized into a form of 72 movements or throws and associated practices. It seems obvious now that the the 18 Lohan hands, which are themselves a condensation of previous arts, are a combination of the Jiao Li, Shou Bu and Shuai Jiao practices, which became the basic training for the monks at the time of Damo.

We also know that during this time Damo specifically instructed the monks in qigong and daoyin-like practices; the similarity to existing Chinese practices thus seen and confirmed, they were either the same or so similar to be the same in that anyone familiar with the existing Chinsee versions would have recognized exactly what was going on even if the practice was of specifically buddhist or Indian origin; Thus the specific Chinese advancements and techniques could be fully applied to the martial arts of the time.

What is truly remarkable is that these practices, like the five animal frolics and many other such practices) still exists today. We see from historical record that higher level martial arts generally operated on the basis of mastery of the core art (or similar core arts) of the daoyin exercises, which could be considered like jibengong, towards something like qigong, which was then practiced either as a separate set or integrated with beginner's forms. It in fact seems to be a development of qing dynasty arts that the qigong movements were eventually separated back out of the forms and taught separately whether or not qigong aspects remained in beginner's forms.

Fast forward 300 years. All of this became widely disseminated and the reputation of these arts and in this area grew. Now we come to Xu Xuanping. Around 800 AD, the philosopher Xu, Xuan-Ping is credited for developing a long Kung Fu of 37 forms, which included moves such as

• Play the Guitar
• Single Whip
• Step Up to Seven Stars
• Jade Lady Works the Shuttles
• High Pat on Horse
• Phoenix Flaps Its Wings

In this era sets of boxing named "Taiji Chang Quan", "Heavenly-Inborn Style", "Nine Small Heavens", and "Acquired Kung Fu" became popular in the area and show similarities to what later became Taijiquan. The principles of softness, sticking, adhering, and using the opponent's own momentum against himself were established in these precursory martial styles, not to mention the extant philosophical teachings of that time.

Perhaps the next major advancement was the dispersal of Yue Fei's army around 1100ad. As legend has it, shortly after 1100ad Yue Fei's army had dispersed into the mountains. The implication is that many of Shaolin's warrior monks were really military men who had joined the temple for various reasons. After he was betrayed by Qin, Yue Fei's body was given a ceremonial burial by cremation in the former capital of the Song; Kaifeng, Henan. Sound familiar? This location is basically in a "peninsula" jutting north into shanxi-shandong area, placing Yue Fei's troops escape route directly into the hotbed of monastic qigong and martial arts practice. The troops likely would have been expecting to find solace there as well, considering one of Yue Fei's teachers was Zhou Tong, who is widely held to have been a Shaolin monk: Xingyi master Dai Longbang wrote the 'Preface to Six Harmonies Boxing' in the 15th reign year of the Qianlong Emperor [1750]. Inside it says, '... when [Yue Fei] was a child, he received special instructions from Zhou Tong. He became extremely skilled in the spear method. He used the spear to create methods for the fist. He established a method called Yi Quan [意拳]. Mysterious and unfathomable, followers of old did not have these skills. Throughout the Jin, Yuan and Ming dynasties few had his art.

At this point may we ask, what is Yi Quan?

Is it not merely Daoyin Tu held for longer periods of time? This art was known for thousands of years prior but who decided that there should be martial and health postures?

Isn't it more likely that an experienced martial artist could determine which postures were better for fighting than for health and vice versa, given that they were all designed for health? It seems now like such a trivial development, everything has been handed to you on a silver platter by this point but there is still so much more to the story. And I could retell the story completely with different details and it would reveal so much. But historical accounts are always so subjective, see how I am rambling subjectively? Well let me try and continue.

Some of Yue Fei's men would have flown to the nearby Wudang mountains bordering Henan, others to the nearby Shaolin on Mt. Song in central Henan; others perhaps to other local villages. One only has to look at a map to recognize several famous birthplaces and names which rise repeatedly again and again when discussing Tai Chi history. Names such as Xi'an, Luoyang, Zhengzhou, Hongtong (Scholar Tree in Shanxi), Shaolin, Wudang, Chen Village, and more.

Not 200 years later Chen Bu moves from big scholar tree in Shanxi to found Chen Village in 1374.

At this point, in the martial world, these theories and practices have been refining for hundreds of years.
By the Ming dynasty, the Li and Chen families (Li Zhai and Chen Wangting) had been studying at the Qianzai temple nearby. They had learned the 13 postures art from Dong Binggang who learned it from his father Dong Cheng. We also know, from record, that Dong Chang's two teachers were Zhang Wen-Kui and Guo Wan-Qing from Shaolin and that the arts Dong created were passed back and picked up by the Shaolin Temple shortly after their creation (in the late Ming/early Qing dynasty). We know as historical fact that shaolin boxing had been practiced in Chen village; arts such as shaolin red fist. Records of this temple indicate that a form of tongbei boxing was created out of shaolin red fist in the 1000 year temple by Dong Cheng. We also know Chen Juting learned tongbei boxing itself. In any case it is beyond obvious that the same repeated inputs were present over hundreds of years in a very small geographic area; shaolin and tongbei boxing, daoyin and qigong, the 13 postures, and shaolin and tongbei boxing. How they were originally combined is a mystery but perhaps it is not a mystery worth solving; for enter Chang Naizhou in the 1700s.

Chang Naizhou's art and writings still survive to this day. I won't discuss him much only to say he was a focal point for the art and theory of the internal school in a similar way to Hua Tou. He was somehow able to at least survey or figure out the main points of internal practice and reconstitute them into some kind of theory for the masses.

How do we know this is true? Well, everything so far is just a statement of historical record. But we also know now that "...that those uncertain parts of Chen Ji’s and Chen Xin’s books were from the Tongbei gong manual (Tongbei Reeling Boxing) of Qianzai Temple." because we have those manuals now too. We also have records of how the six harmony spear from xingyi was taken by the Chens and incorporated into their art, and all of this makes perfect logical sense because if you overlay the stories of xingyi, bagua and taiji together they all operate in the same general geographic area; for example DZQ writes;

From Wang Village to Yangcheng County in Shanxi and the border with Bo’ai County in Henan it is just a short distance. If Wang Zongyue were to go to Henan on business, this would be the only possible route. Because of this, it is perfectly reasonable to suspect that Wang passed by Qianzai Temple, where he passed on his “13 Soft hands” to the Daoist Dong Bingqian. He also passed through Zhaobao Village, only 40km from Bo’ai (there was a Shanxi Hall there in pre-modern times), where he encountered Jiang Fa, mourning his parents’ death, and took Jiang Fa with him back to Wang Village in Shanxi where he taught him the “13 Postures Boxing.” -- Dai Zhi Qiang on Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:51 am (RSF)

Also, What Dong Haichuan concealed was this training progression and its methods. [...] Thus, his different students themselves created different sets [...] yet, this is just a difference in palm techniques and not in basic methods and training progressions. [...] This sequential progression shows the tightly-knit, systematic, and scientific nature of this complete system of martial arts training.

Stephen Yan writes, "Letters by the late headman of Jun Village in Shanxi, Ji Genquan, visits to the present headman, Ji Zhenjiang, and conversations with old village folk, stated that Ji Longfeng made more than one trip to the Henan Shaolin temple.
There are 2 routes between Jun village and Shaolin. The first is through Pu city. Pu city is only one pass away from Bo’Ai county in Henan, and there is a valley in the Taixing mountains near Pu. Merchants used this pass to travel between Henan and Shanxi in the old days.
The other route is crossing over Zhongtiao mountain, across the Yellow River, to the “three gorges”. This route is short, but crosses treacherous terrain.
During the end of the Ming dynasty, when Ji lived, the area was overrun with bandits. Ji, a doctor was worried of bandit raids and decided to study the martial arts to protect his home.
On his first visit to Shaolin Si, Ji may have taken the first route, through Pu city and up to Shaolin.
At that time, the most important styles in Shaolin Si was Shaolin Taizu Chuan, Shaolin Hong Chuan and Shaolin Pao Chuan.
Bai Yufeng's Wu Xing Di Tang Chuan (5 element tumbling boxing), created during the Yuan dynasty, had probably already been disseminated to the masses.
At this time, Ji Longfeng had not yet gained any true inspiration, however, the path to Shaolin runs past the QianZhai Temple in Bo’Ai county.
Priest Dong of QianZhai, was famous for his Shi San Shi Rou Shou (13 soft hands) and Tongbei. Dong's liu he chang (six harmony spear) was especially intricate.

[...] Arriving at Shaolin Si, Ji's “6 harmony spear” skill was incomparable, the abbot begged Ji to stay at the temple to teach. (this was recorded in the Ji Family Chronicles. In the Shaolin temple's archives, there is a spear manual titled, "Teacher Ji's Spear Manual) Shi Yong Wen, originally from Shaolin, still has it in his care. (The author has visited Shi Yong Wen in Kaifeng, Henan to authenticate the manual.)
The manual in question is exactly the same as the “Xin Yi Liu He Chang” manual in the author's possession. From this, we can see that Shaolin treated Ji respectfully and called him Ji Lao Shi (teacher, Ji). Therefore this story matches up with the story in the Ji Family Chronicles."
(emphasis mine).

All of this completely explains why the Chen's art was changed in accordance with Qi Jiguang's book, it was a natural development like a software upgrade, as were the developments near Chen qingping's time.

But moreso, it should show that the foundational practice and lingua franca of all these arts is basically a highly standardized body of knowledge. I think that in reality when you see two people disagreeing over what internal means you are, as you said, really watching two uninteresting joe schmoes whinging. There is a lot to learn here, just my two cents.

p.s. for Formosa Neijia, the above is why I do not consider there to be a major difference between scholar and martial qigong in theory, while there is such a difference in practice. I think its more like, it's the same idea but you need to focus on your goals, if your goal is martial development stick to the postures that flow or gel better with your underlying folk art.
Last edited by Appledog on Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:54 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: “Internal” body training and non-complimentary activities

Postby everything on Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:50 am

We won’t have a Yang Luchan and Sun Lutang again.

But all is not lost for joe schmos.

I have no talent but so many talented and untalented people will always love sports and MA.
Physical development and movement skill won’t go away. It would have to be a WALL-E world otherwise.

Meditation is increasingly popular it seems. There are apps for Zoomers.
Brain scans will get better and better.

“Internal” seems harder, but it still isn’t that hard to get a small taste.

If some talented people (in all three) study this combo, they will still benefit.
Sure they can’t beat Tyson, but that’s like saying, I can’t beat Tiger Woods so I give up on golf.
Why would anyone do that?
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Re: “Internal” body training and non-complimentary activities

Postby Appledog on Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:13 pm

everything wrote:But all is not lost for joe schmos.

I have no talent but so many talented and untalented people will always love sports and MA....

If some talented people (in all three) study this combo, they will still benefit.
Sure they can’t beat Tyson, but that’s like saying, I can’t beat Tiger Woods so I give up on golf.
Why would anyone do that?


Oh fo sho. It's nice to have a dream, I think anyone can do it -- but there is also the principle 'take the good and leave the bad,' -- so even if you just wanna have fun and get out of the house a bit it's already a benefit.
Last edited by Appledog on Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: “Internal” body training and non-complimentary activities

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:11 pm

Appledog, that post went above and beyond so kudos for that. I appreciate what must have taken hours to put together. I'm gonna be picky with some of your points and the conclusion you draw but please take it in the spirit of honest debate as you surely wrote something worth debating.
Appledog wrote:Based of what we know of Daoyin and qigong today it is now possible to infer that the theory of qi circulation was applied to martial arts more than 3,000 years ago.
I see no direct evidence of this. From what I've read Hua Tou's exercises and daoyin developed independently of martial arts at that time. People were punching and kicking each other without any daoyin being involved. Assuming this gives the impression that modern ideas of qi circulation directly powered physical techniques instead of other, more readily accessible things like muscles. This comes up again with Chang Nai-zhou below.

But historicity aside, the geography is interesting. Dengfeng, Shaolin, Chen village, etc. is at the center of the Xian-Shanghai corridor and the focal point of a great many events
Thanks for the explanation on that. From a historical perspective, I can see what you're saying.

...re-examining the Shaolin story... How and where these martial arts came from is also merely a matter of historical record. The records state the monks practiced at least the jiao li arts, and another art known as shou bu which basically amounted to a form of stand-up fist boxing. The origin of these arts is considered well-known in that they can be traced back to the ancient practices we have mentioned.
Tracing what shaolin was or wasn't doing at that time directly back to Hua tuo or daoyin isn't very clear IMO. It's a big leap to say that their martial arts originated from Hua when what we know is that they were famous for STAFF FIGHTING, not empty hand work, and even that fame was much later than widely assumed. Your thesis assumes empty hand work was the emphasis all along.

By Damo's time, the monks had already developed an art called "Xin Yi Ba"...into a sort of fighting art that they used to defend themselves against wild animals.
First of all, from what i can tell, xinyiba was a latter development at shaolin and it was never the main art taught there, xiao hong quan, etc. being more popular. Second, again I'm having a really hard time seeing using empty hands against tigers and bears. We seem to be skipping weapons as the focus again.

It seems obvious now that the the 18 Lohan hands, which are themselves a condensation of previous arts, are a combination of the Jiao Li, Shou Bu and Shuai Jiao practices, which became the basic training for the monks at the time of Damo.

The connection between the 18 luohan hands and the qigong is also unclear. The 18 luohan qigong (I learned 2 versions, both from a northern praying mantis source) resembles nothing like the basic kungfu set associated with the 18 luohans. Also, if they were spending lots of time doing xinyiba and 18 luohan hands then why did they need Damo to teach them the muscle change classic in the first place? What could he have offered them that they wouldn't already have had if they were already doing daoyin and Hua Tuo-like sets?

We see from historical record that higher level martial arts generally operated on the basis of mastery of the core art (or similar core arts) of the daoyin exercises, which could be considered like jibengong, towards something like qigong, which was then practiced either as a separate set or integrated with beginner's forms. It in fact seems to be a development of qing dynasty arts that the qigong movements were eventually separated back out of the forms and taught separately whether or not qigong aspects remained in beginner's forms.
I did learn a set of soft shaolin mizongquan that had a small qigong set at the beginning and CLF and HG forms often have qigong built into the beginning of their forms even though most people speed through those. But it seems that the muscle change classic, eight brocades, five animal frolics, etc. survived in a separate form outside of the form work (taolu) into the Qing dynasty. So it seems that shaolin saw the importance of separating the two in their practice for at least the past 500 years or so. I have a lot more to say about this later.

Fast forward 300 years. All of this became widely disseminated and the reputation of these arts and in this area grew. Now we come to Xu Xuanping. Around 800 AD, the philosopher Xu, Xuan-Ping is credited for developing a long Kung Fu of 37 forms, which included moves such as

• Play the Guitar
• Single Whip
• Step Up to Seven Stars
• Jade Lady Works the Shuttles
• High Pat on Horse
• Phoenix Flaps Its Wings
This comes from the book by Song Shu-ming that Wu Tu-nan claims was given to him. Song claims that Xu was practicing an art nearly identical to Yang family taiji (the names are identical to Yang style in....every....single....case!) at around 800AD?!? My guess is ancient attribution was done intentionally by "Song" ie Wu Tu-nan who obviously couldn't stand Chen style or the real Song, if he existed, in order to cut the Chen connection out. Wu's argument with Chen Fa-ke over the Chen's practicing a version of shaolin xiaohongquan is interesting because it breaks your direct connection to the shaolin synthesis that obviously went on at some point. Now I actually agree with you that synthesis did happen and that Wu is being pissy about the Chen's and that the connection is there. It's just interesting that you mentioned Xu without mentioning the obvious disconnect from shaolin that Wu introduced. In fact, it's my opinion that it was at that point that the wheels began to fall off the wagon and that shaolin's contributions to all of this was being deliberately destroyed/discredited by Wu, Sun, etc. in an effort to separate internal from external.
Source for Song's book here: https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... g-shuming/
BTW, the concepts introduced in that book are very solid and I recommend it no matter who wrote it or what their intentions were.

Yue Fei... was a child, he received special instructions from Zhou Tong. He became extremely skilled in the spear method. He used the spear to create methods for the fist. He established a method called Yi Quan [意拳]. Mysterious and unfathomable, followers of old did not have these skills. Throughout the Jin, Yuan and Ming dynasties few had his art.
At this point may we ask, what is Yi Quan? Is it not merely Daoyin Tu held for longer periods of time? This art was known for thousands of years prior but who decided that there should be martial and health postures?
So you're accrediting Yue Fei with yiquan and saying to goes back 1000s of years? Emmm.........not sure about that one but it's an interesting theory.

enter Chang Naizhou in the 1700s. Chang Naizhou's art and writings still survive to this day. I won't discuss him much only to say he was a focal point for the art and theory of the internal school in a similar way to Hua Tou. He was somehow able to at least survey or figure out the main points of internal practice and reconstitute them into some kind of theory for the masses.
It's been a while since I've read Chang but I remember two things that I hope are correct: first was the fact that he himself pulled a bunch of stuff into a synthesis instead of getting it from one teacher. This is important because when my varied background is discussed I often hear: "See! See! You didn't get THE REALZ BGZ!" because I didn't get everything from ONE TEACHER. Every single teacher I've had had to pull from various sources to figure this stuff out. It's only later that they try to obscure that fact when acting as the sole source of info on the subject. But the fact that Chang had to make his own synthesis back in the 1700's shows me that the connection between the daoyin, shaolin, "qi circulation," "internal," etc. wasn't very clear even at that time.
Second, IIRC Marnix Wells in his translation was pretty clear about translating the esoteric passages into direct anatomical terms using specific muscle groups -- not basing it off of qi, etc. If it's based on using muscle groups then that can be explained using modern terms, as Wells suggested it should be.

But moreso, it should show that the foundational practice and lingua franca of all these arts is basically a highly standardized body of knowledge. I think that in reality when you see two people disagreeing over what internal means you are, as you said, really watching two uninteresting joe schmoes whinging. There is a lot to learn here, just my two cents.
You've provided a historical overview of how you think things tie together and I recognize the importance of that. But even in the history, i think the direct connection between some things is being a bit overblown. Second, I don't see how this leads to technology with a coherent set of terms and criteria that can be used to describe fighting in general or power generation in kungfu.
BTW, I really wish i had looked you up in Taizhong. We could have had some awesome conversations in the tea shops.
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Re: “Internal” body training and non-complimentary activities

Postby everything on Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:50 pm

In the near future, according to “futurists”

Humans and robotics can merge. Bionic arms, vision, hearing, and so on. They are here at high budget.

The human brain neural networks can be mapped.

Then merged with AI.

Essentially cyborgs are a next step in evolution.

Assuming that is true,
- The physical stuff will be enhanced.

- Meditation will be better understood and enhanced.

- however “Internal” will probably not be so “mapped”.

That should be interesting.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: “Internal” body training and non-complimentary activities

Postby Appledog on Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:10 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:It's a big leap to say that their martial arts originated from Hua when what we know is that they were famous for STAFF FIGHTING, not empty hand work, and even that fame was much later than widely assumed. Your thesis assumes empty hand work was the emphasis all along.


Yes, you're right, and thank you for the other corrections as well. My post contained a lot of speculation, and to some degree we can't really know what happened. I just think it's interesting that daoyin tu is so old, and what that may mean for the development of martial arts.

Formosa Neijia wrote:
Xu Xuanping...

This comes from the book by Song Shu-ming that Wu Tu-nan claims was given to him. [...] BTW, the concepts introduced in that book are very solid and I recommend it no matter who wrote it or what their intentions were.


Thanks. The pieces didn't seem to fit here, but that's how these things go. If the Dong Cheng story is true (and the Yue Fei army dispersal, etc.) then it may very well be that the reason why the Qings burned the temple and tried to kill everyone in the Dong clan (and similar stories about shaolin) would be that they recognized that they were in cahoots with the military to some degree. So unfortunately stories were made up to cover real events and whether these stories are true or not we will probably never know. People changed their names and moved around a lot. I put this on par with my theory that Chang Nai Zhou, aka Chang San, might be Chang San Feng. Meaning who he is might not be so important as what he wrote.

Formosa Neijia wrote:BTW, I really wish i had looked you up in Taizhong. We could have had some awesome conversations in the tea shops.


I might go back at the end of the year. I don't like the cold. It depends :)
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