Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Quigga on Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:08 pm

Yi is intending to physically do something. Sending a signal throughout time and space, meaning speed and weight. What do you move? Feel it. Play with it, but don't mess with other people. You can stand still or even lie down and gain many interesting physical benefits. Via lighting and thunder methods it's also good speed training. Wind and rain help sooth when things get too worked up. Think basketball (=)
Mental training.

Connecting the senses to the organs is a lot of work, lol
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby robert on Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:06 pm

everything wrote:So you can slowly feel your fascial tension

I think everyone can feel it to some degree. I haven't met anyone who is connected in the CIMA sense without training. So although you can feel it when you are connected, you train to learn how to move in a connected manner - one part of the body moves, all parts of the body move.

everything wrote:And that’s what allows one to feel Qi?
Is that the idea proposed?

I would say that is one aspect of qi. Qi can refer to many things, air, the energy in food, sensations, and so on.

everything wrote:Serious Q: is that anyone’s actual, practical experience?

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't agree with CP. There have been private email lists and forums where people discuss it.

everything wrote:Beginners can hold an imaginary Qi ball and some can feel Qi almost immediately.
AFAIK they didn’t learn to feel fascia first. Probably never will.
It would seem hard to reject the null hypothesis.

Sight and sound are both sensations, but they're different. The sensation of holding an imaginary qi ball is not the same as fascial tension. If you don't know what connection in the body feels like, if you can't use your waist to move your limbs, if you don't know what fascial tension is referring to, there isn't much point in discussing it.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby yeniseri on Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:19 pm

robert wrote:Sight and sound are both sensations, but they're different. The sensation of holding an imaginary qi ball is not the same as fascial tension. If you don't know what connection in the body feels like, if you can't use your waist to move your limbs, if you don't know what fascial tension is referring to, there isn't much point in discussing it.


I am incapapble of finding the words to descrivbe it but "holding the qi ball" aka electromagnetic x field of some kind, one may say fascial tension but 'tension" is limited in that context but the mechanistic hand motions with sensory 'invisible' tools does allow some intuitive quality that can be felt enough to "feel" an onjective quality not frequently part of awareness and of course, the conditioning to access it in the second place. I lack the verbal cunning liguistical ability to put into words the presence of that feeling!

I came across a German publication some time ago where the quality felt as "qi" expressed itself as a heat source (evidenced by higher than normal increaed amplificatoin registering as "hot' and seen as "red" per the colder parts of the body in a lower tem. mode. The veracity of this may be expressed differently but a few attempts to document its reality will be a challenge.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Quigga on Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:29 pm

There are some things that likely we will never be able to measure. I mean, if you want to take away all sense of wonder and awe in the world... What's a human without something that surpasses them and escapes their limits of reasoning, belief and habit?

As for Yi - can also mean 'everything is as intended'. Then you just move within that network. And since all is connected, all moves at once. You can't be trapped by the physical body however, you need to closely watch and nurture the integration of at least 3 body layers. As for whom or what intends... It's all just a dream :-)
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby everything on Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:26 am

well said.

connectedness - seems there in all coordinated movement such as a good golf swing, the list goes on and on. connectedness/fascia/the motion/the actual technique/the kinetic chain/plus qi as in energy, not air .... yeah sure IMA should integrate together. x+y or x*y, not x=y, which seems to be the idea. could just be it's too hard to read the vocabulary. (robert, thanks for the serious reply)
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Appledog on Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:02 am

everything wrote:So you can slowly feel your fascial tension

And that’s what allows one to feel Qi?
Is that the idea proposed?

Serious Q: is that anyone’s actual, practical experience?
Beginners can hold an imaginary Qi ball and some can feel Qi almost immediately.
AFAIK they didn’t learn to feel fascia first. Probably never will.
It would seem hard to reject the null hypothesis.


If I were to teach you to feel your Qi, I would never talk about fascia nor would you ever come across the idea yourself. 95% of your blockages are not in the soft tissue near the surface of your body -- or the sensations during practice would be a lot different.

As for holding a chi ball, it takes a bit longer. What you feel there depending on what type of chi ball you are holding could be anything from bones to tendons to fascia -- but it is only a stepping stone to 'really' feeling your chi. What you are doing with a chi ball is a basic form of intent (visualization) to help you gather enough chi to feel it.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby origami_itto on Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:46 am

Quigga wrote:There are some things that likely we will never be able to measure. I mean, if you want to take away all sense of wonder and awe in the world... What's a human without something that surpasses them and escapes their limits of reasoning, belief and habit?

As for Yi - can also mean 'everything is as intended'. Then you just move within that network. And since all is connected, all moves at once. You can't be trapped by the physical body however, you need to closely watch and nurture the integration of at least 3 body layers. As for whom or what intends... It's all just a dream :-)


Pretty sure once we figure out Qi, there will still be plenty of mystery left in the universe.

For my money, it's a poorly defined term with a lot of different meanings when it comes down to practicality. Being as precise and realistic as possible is worthwhile to my way of thinking. There's what we call it and what it really is, I'm more worried about the latter.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Yeung on Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:16 am

Just a summary of our discussion on fascial tension gives rise to qi:

Robert: connected, no brute force, everyone can sense it
Everything: "fong song", beginners can feel it
Quigga: mind and body connection
Yeniseri: Qi is a heat source
Appledog: can be taught

People can confirm the experience of feeling some sort of energy field in their hand when they are in a passive stance, stretching out their hands with elbows pointing downward, and left and right hand connected on the upper back, etc.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby origami_itto on Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:46 am

Yeung wrote:People can confirm the experience of feeling some sort of energy field in their hand when they are in a passive stance, stretching out their hands with elbows pointing downward, and left and right hand connected on the upper back, etc.


People can confirm the experience of a feeling. Full stop. We're constantly bathed in a stew of actual radiation and energy that we are completely oblivious to, and are prone to interpret the workings of our local nervous system as something more.

The subjective experience can be used to guide someone along a path of cultivation, but the mental model even advanced practitioners use to understand what's happening doesn't necessarily have any resemblance to the actual phenomenon that's producing the sensation. "qi balls" for example, taking what's happening in the skin and nerves and understand it as a gathering of some external esoteric energy between the hands.

May be useful to get a working knowledge, but I think we're all better served looking beyond at the underlying truth vs getting stuck in the mythology.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Appledog on Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:28 am

oragami_itto wrote:The subjective experience can be used to guide someone along a path of cultivation, but the mental model even advanced practitioners use to understand what's happening doesn't necessarily have any resemblance to the actual phenomenon that's producing the sensation. "qi balls" for example, taking what's happening in the skin and nerves and understand it as a gathering of some external esoteric energy between the hands.

May be useful to get a working knowledge, but I think we're all better served looking beyond at the underlying truth vs getting stuck in the mythology.


You say the mental model even advanced practitioners use to understand what's happening doesn't necessarily have any resemblance to the actual phenomenon that's producing the sensation. As an advanced practitioner, could you comment on how your experiences prevent you from determining if it has any connection to a physical practice? Or for example what some of the difficulties would be or have been, in your experience, in trying to test such a phenomenon? Also if I may, were you taught to collect energy between the hands? Could you describe that a little? Collecting chi between the palms is something I have often heard about but was not taught how to do so I'm a little curious.

I read a few years ago about Liu Chang I (White crane, Taiwan) being hooked up to an EKG or something when he was doing his thunder power qigong and they could measure some interesting results. My main question is, if you're getting feedback on your nerves or not. That could be measured.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:40 am

Bill Moyers, many yrs back had a good documentary on Qi


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZRHy7EBrFY

The full version can be seen here

https://billmoyers.com/content/the-mystery-of-chi/

How many posting about QI, can do anything similar to the demonstrations of what is said it enables one to do or effect.



(pronounces as Qi in Chinese) of breathing is air.
The gas from atmosphere is mainly composed of oxygen and nitrogen. Humans inhale air into lungs, the lungs take in oxygen but release carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.
So, the composition of the inhaled air and exhaled air are different, but they are all composed by gas molecules.

On the contrary, the Qi of "Qi sinks in Dantian" is not composed of gas molecules at all. To differentiate them, we call the Qi in "Qi sink in Dantian" as genuine Qi (in Chinese, gas and Qi are shearing a same word).

Many articles discuss "what is genuine Qi." And the conclusions are not unanimous.
Some people contend that genuine Qi and air is similar.

Others believe that genuine Qi is a substance. More people propose that genuine Qi is an electromagnetic wave. Yet additional people suggest that genuine Qi is a pure energy.
These views can explain some aspects of Qi phenomena, but no single postulation can explain all the aspects and facts of Qi.
Even though the concept of Qi is the foundation of the traditional Chinese medicine theory, the modern definition of Qi is not unanimous.



A Study Based on Biomechanics By Jie Gu, Ph. D,
Abstract


A wave is a disturbance that propagates through a medium. A physical wave is the mechanical motion of the medium. For instance, the shear and longitudinal waves.
A chemical wave is the propagation of chemical reaction, for instance, the stimulation state of body tissue, the secretion state of body fluid, and the hormone gener ation state, etc. Biological wave is the orderly wave in organic body, such as the rhythmic movement of the cells.

Physiological wave include physical, chemical, and biological waves.
This paper presents a new concept: intention wave; and identify that Qi (LA) in Taijiquan is the
Jie Gu, Ph.D. is a Detroit engineer and has studied many
aspects of Tai ChiChuan over the years.

intention wave. An intention wave is the creation and propagation of Physiological wave under the guidance of the mind.
In this paper, using the concept of intention wave, we study the relationship and difference between the gas of breathing and the Qi in Taijiquan.


Interesting study
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:55 am

May be useful to get a working knowledge, but I think we're all better served looking beyond at the underlying truth vs getting stuck in the mythology.


What some might call "mythology" the basis of Chinese medicine.
With out even a basic understanding or ability of this how is it not a "truth"

https://billmoyers.com/content/the-mystery-of-chi/

In this episode, Bill Moyers travels to China to learn about healing and the mind from another culture. “What I discovered in China was another way of thinking about mind and body, about health and illness and a phenomenon called chi,” Bill Moyers tells the audience in his introduction.

Later on in the episode, in a park where hundreds are practicing Tai Chi, he observes: “I can see that although traditional Chinese medicine seems alien to Westerners, it does have something to offer our practice with medicine.

On the one hand there’s the practical contribution it can make, herbs for certain diseases, acupuncture.

But there’s another level that’s becoming clear to me …
that to these people it seems that health is not just the absence of illness, it’s a philosophy of life.”
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:12 am

windwalker wrote:Bill Moyers, many yrs back had a good documentary on Qi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZRHy7EBrFY

TriEssence Martial Arts
Jul 21, 2020

In this episode of Fact or Fiction I will be discussing my other Taichi grandmaster, the one that had the most influence over my master's knowledge, he is a figure of much controversy, and I will be openly addressing each of them.

As always constructive comments are welcome and feel free to contact me for class details in Gauteng South Africa atm, and in NSW AU in the near future.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHiLE7IAOIU

TriEssence Martial Arts
Jul 29, 2020

Part 2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgWO5sP5q6g

TriEssence Martial Arts
Aug 6, 2020

Part 3:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQaWzrghOOs
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby robert on Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:15 am

Appledog wrote:If I were to teach you to feel your Qi, I would never talk about fascia nor would you ever come across the idea yourself. 95% of your blockages are not in the soft tissue near the surface of your body -- or the sensations during practice would be a lot different.

I'm not sure what your idea of fascia is. Fascia is not just superficial it encloses muscles and internal organs.

A fascia (/ˈfæʃ(i)ə/; plural fasciae /ˈfæʃii/; adjective fascial; from Latin: "band") is a band or sheet of connective tissue, primarily collagen, beneath the skin that attaches to, stabilizes, encloses, and separates muscles and other internal organs.[1] Fascia is classified by layer, as superficial fascia, deep fascia, and visceral or parietal fascia, or by its function and anatomical location.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascia

FWIW.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:18 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQaWzrghOOs&t=1955s

He can't do what he comments on but has some experience..
Would not agree with his conclusions.

They'er his conclusions

Interesting his mentioning of Teacher Shi Ming,
combining his taiji with another art for delivery of taiji "power"
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