Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:50 pm

Just to put things straight
Thai Keik which descends from yap Sui ting thru tok seng kam and lu tong bao
It has no white crane and the noi gung is not heng ha but deep and profound
Lots of sitting and martial in its outcome
Huang as stated was introduced CMC by master Yap
However the two schools differ in curriculum and philosophy
Nothing in Thai Keik is outside of tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5666
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby Appledog on Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:29 am

wayne hansen wrote:Just to put things straight
Thai Keik which descends from yap Sui ting thru tok seng kam and lu tong bao
It has no white crane and the noi gung is not heng ha but deep and profound
Lots of sitting and martial in its outcome
Huang as stated was introduced CMC by master Yap
However the two schools differ in curriculum and philosophy
Nothing in Thai Keik is outside of tai chi


I've often wondered about heng and ha. I was not taught this and was advised against breath control. Likely because my lineage comes from the CFK/Hu Yaozhen idea of natural breathing. Also spoken of by that same Chen Yanlin, BTW, who ironically enough is responsible for 'stealing' a Yang secret book and apparently upsetting the Yang family for publishing things that were supposed to be kept secret. It's in enough books and it's actually explained online in a few places. But of course in different ways so you can't be sure which one is correct. But piecing things together (because I have never been taught heng and ha) (and wanted to understand it), it seems to be a type of fa jing of the breath control based on reverse breathing. As usual, the life stories of the masters often contain strange, shall we say, kernels... of wisdom... that can often act as clues.

And all that being said, it would be very easy for someone to learn White Crane and hear sounds very similar to heng and ha, and to pick up neigong from that -- whether or not it is the same neigong I don't know. But so much so that I had always assumed heng and ha was from white crane -- an easy speculation to arise at given what I was always taught about breath control. I mean a lot of Tai Chi schools practice White Crane warmups like lifting the shoulders with breathing. I remember once in peace park in Taipei a local taichi school tried to teach me a shoulder opening exercise that was from white crane. RIght after a session of white crane push hands. I mean it was exactly like in the White Crane schools I had seen. But I guess this actually must be a real method in Tai Chi going back quite a while. And all that being said I can see how if you employed a natural breathing method and there was a place where you needed to reverse-open, or reverse-close, and were led to do so ex. 32/high pat on horse, or 40/hurricane kick, that using the aforementioned speculation could serve as a training method to make your moves more powerful. I would also point out that this is about as difficult as 2+2 if you had all the individual pieces in front of you, so I don't consider it a secret. But again I am only speculating.

but only because if I told you the stories I heard from the lineage holders in white crane in taiwan no one would believe me lol
Last edited by Appledog on Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:50 pm

marvin8 wrote:
windwalker wrote:https://www.taichiandqigong.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/yang-stances-01.png
To Yang Zhenduo, the Cheng Manching style would appear weak and collapsed. To the Cheng stylist, the Yang style might appear too overextended or external.


https://www.taichiandqigong.com/article ... ng-styles/

Comparing different frames

Biomechanically, ... Also, there are advantages to bending the rear leg (e.g., rotation, head movement), while having the weight and head on the front foot.

Another example of the downward diagonal overhand right:

Image Image

Mark at :48, “So, now the right shoulder and the left hip is getting closed off. Xinyi is the same. The body mechanics is the same. …”

Chi Body
Jul 19, 2021

Generate striking power to the hands, elbows, and shoulders, by establishing cross connection between the shoulders and Kua, demonstrated by Shifu Mark Li of Chi Body.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsGgE5kw3f0
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby everything on Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:22 am

Sun and Wu Hao have a follow step
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:20 pm

The bent back leg in CMC is indeed like the follow step
Unfortunately most misunderstand it causing the drooping C back
Another thing people get wrong is the70/30
They think it is about the stance
My take it is about the arms and the point of application
The bent back leg forming into the yielding and transition into the following move
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5666
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby Shinobi on Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:57 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:
Just for my own piece of mind, here is the title “Yang Taiji is One Family : Across the Straits” by Prof. Qu Shijing (“楊氏太極 兩岸一家” 瞿世鏡) for future reference.

The Yang family neigong and power generation based off of the heng/ha breathing isn't being widely taught at all. Most people are still unaware of it and it's not like the Yang's are trying to fill in the gaps. I keep warning people that the daoist stuff from Zhang is a major distraction AWAY from any martial neigong usage but so few people ever get to see anything that they are unable to tell the utility of the training. The heng/ha neigong of the Yang family is profound but doesn't take as much time on a daily basis to build whereas the daoist stuff is going to take 4 hours A DAY and won't improve your martial arts at all.

The further relevance to this thread is that some of ZMQs descendants got the heng/ha breathing neigong, qinna and a very useful version of push hands from white crane and others did not. Virtually all of the "martial" guys from ZMQ are in this former group and their material doesn't have the same feel as the taichi hippies from New York trained by ZMQ or the non-crane ZMQ guys in Taiwan.


The future of Yang heng/ha breathing is in these little girls' hands ;D

https://www.ixigua.com/7043349211370390 ... cd7c664173
Shinobi
Santi
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:18 am

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:57 pm

johnwang wrote:
Graculus wrote:For further background info you might like to check this thread from 2009 (18 pages worth :o ):
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5082&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=78fde05265cea3e80cefdf317c8dd22b

It's fun to reread those 12 years post again. It seems to me that people discussed more openly back then.



Yup! Good times!

:)

Cheers!

S
I prefer
You behind the wheel
And me the passenger
User avatar
shawnsegler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6423
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 12:26 pm
Location: The center of things.

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby jimmy on Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:15 pm

Image

Image
User avatar
jimmy
Wuji
 
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:24 pm

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests