Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby taiwandeutscher on Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:44 am

As far as I remember, only the Cui lineage in PRC does list ZMQ as an official indoor of YCF. That was also topic of a famous fight between Wang Zihe (Lü Dianchen lineage) and ZMQ, both drunken, with ZMQ landing in the gutter. Many older TW teachers and masters (from other arts) really don't have much good to say about ZMQ, especially because of his connections to the ruling KMT clique in those days, and the change to a more sohisticated health game for well-offs

OTOH, interesting for me was, that YZD and his so-called master students went to southern TW in the early 2000s (Gaoxiong/Tainan). YZD gave an infamous speech about his stretched back leg, Taiwanese didn't like that at all, but YZD refused to touch hands with Ju Hongbin (a ZMQ indoor) or any one. In 2 weeks, the mainland team did not win one single phs match with the Taiwanese, they locked really ..... I drove a lot thru heavy traffic to watch all that and was utterly disappointed.
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby Formosa Neijia on Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:31 am

Chen Pan-ling put him on his ass after getting tired of Zheng's nonsense. None of the main Taiwan taiji community considered him in high regard and his reputation seemed to come from mainly teaching people like CKS's wife and getting press from Robert Smith, etc.

taiwandeutscher wrote:Many older TW teachers and masters (from other arts) really don't have much good to say about ZMQ, especially because of his connections to the ruling KMT clique in those days, and the change to a more sohisticated health game for well-offs
.

You're really holding back. :D Didn't someone with interesting sideburns have an encounter with him?
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby everything on Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:51 am

so and so beat so and so ... doesn't answer any real question. ali beat foreman. holyfield beat tyson. couture beat liddell. a cat beat a snake (I saw it on youtube). but the opposite has happened. yeah sure maybe it means something in this case. maybe not. why does it matter to OP or anyone else. it shouldn't. can you beat those guys? zheng? chen? no? does it matter? what does matter? this is middle school b.s. are you reading this shit? the cat v snake and other series is better than this. by this kind of faulty logic, only pele, messi or ronaldo can train a future football star worth anything. think about how stupid that sounds
Last edited by everything on Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:02 am

Interesting the stories some recount...
wonder if any of those passing them on had met or trained with some of the top students :-\
of ZMC.

Those in Malaysia, seem to have different history....


The first two teachers to bring Cheng style Tai Chi to the region were Huang Hsing Hsien and Yue Shu Ting
who had both come from China via Taiwan.

In pro-Communist China they had both served as Guomindang
officials and it was Yue who took Huang to meet Cheng Man Ching in Taiwan. Both Yue and Huang had
originally studied Shaolin arts and owed their faith in Tai Chi to having been bested by Cheng in challenges,

Huang was the first to arrive and he settled in Singapore, while Yue arriving a year later, started teaching in
Penang in the north.

Both teachers established their reputation not by extolling the health benefits of the
art, nor by engaging in intellectual discussion, but by convincing the local martial artists that Tai Chi was a
viable and effective art.
It is worth noting that nearly all of Yue's leading students came from a background
in other arts and all gave them up to practise Tai Chi.


. Master Lau Kim Hong tells how his teacher Lu Tong Bao would 'spar' with his students, inviting
them to attack him One at a time, whereupon he would punch, kick and throw them to the ground. In these
sessions students would suffer strains, sprains and even broken bones.

Thus it was from the time of its arrival in the region, Cheng style was established as an effective fighting art fit to rival the arts already
popular.

A tradition was also established of hard, physical training.
The curriculum taught by those early
teachers consisted of form, applications and pushing hands. Weapons were also taught.

Then after Cheng's
visit in 1958, when he taught a set of qigong exercises designed to develop internal strength, these too
became an important part of the syllabus.


https://www.zhong-ding.com/images/docum ... t_Asia.pdf


Anyone interested in the style

Image
https://www.zhong-ding.com/index.php

lots of resources...history and articles


note: not a practitioner of the style.
Trained in it from those who had first-hand training from ZMC.
Would recommend it to those looking for a in depth method of approaching taiji
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby Quigga on Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:53 am

Will look into it
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 pm

Once again
Old ladies telling stories
Lu tong Bao and chock seng Kam both masters who took on everyone
Thai boxers,Silat ,hard Kung fu
Both owe their art to yap Sui ting who bowed to CMC
Thé skill may have come directly from Yap/Yue but he gave credit to CMC
Note that none challenged CMC openly when he was living
So their students to talk of it now is irrelevant and childish
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby Bhassler on Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:41 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Once again
Old ladies telling stories
Lu tong Bao and chock seng Kam both masters who took on everyone
Thai boxers,Silat ,hard Kung fu
Both owe their art to yap Sui ting who bowed to CMC
Thé skill may have come directly from Yap/Yue but he gave credit to CMC
Note that none challenged CMC openly when he was living
So their students to talk of it now is irrelevant and childish


Is there video of any of the fights you mention? Otherwise, you're just telling stories, too-- no different from anyone else.
Speaking of stories, I've met a couple of folks who claimed CMC lineage. They were good at their version of push hands, but nothing special. All their fighting skills came from other arts.
This is not to say that CMC was or wasn't great, just saying that what made it to the US doesn't match with what is claimed from elsewhere. Ben Lo was famous for how difficult his stance work was when he was teaching in San Francisco, but CMC's direct students in the US seemed to all be of the "if you're sweating, you're doing it wrong" persuasion. So there's more reason for people to question CMC than just a bunch of "old ladies telling stories."
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:35 pm

My stories are no more valid than the ones above
That’s my point
No videos back then
There is an article in an early Black Belt about chock with photos
Just like Dan Dockerty Wang Ken Su one the south east boxing champs
As did many others from that lineage
CMC was teaching mainly hippies in NY
In Penang the Chinese were under constant attack due to Malay indépendance
That is why the noi gung and fighting was so important
One of our main teachers was a guérilla fighter and undercover detective
The proof was the number of hard style fighters converted through combat
Just read Nigle Sutton’s books it is all documented there
Old lady signing off
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:36 pm

windwalker wrote:Image
To Yang Zhenduo, the Cheng Manching style would appear weak and collapsed. To the Cheng stylist, the Yang style might appear too overextended or external.


https://www.taichiandqigong.com/article ... ng-styles/


Comparing different frames

Biomechanically, the better frame may depend on the context (e.g., push, punch, lure, etc.) and distance from opponent. Also, there are advantages to bending the rear leg (e.g., rotation, head movement), while having the weight and head on the front foot.

In the tai chi form, one down parries, then pushes (not simultaneously). A concept in boxing and MMA is simultaneous attack and defend (getting one's head off line). If one never gets their head off line while issuing (like in the CMC frame), they may be KOd.

Lopez starts with weight loaded on the back foot. Commey tries to punch Lopez's head located on the back foot. However, Lopez moves his head to over the front footsimultaneously slipping Commey's punch and knocking down Commey:

Image

At 6:25, Mark says the downward block can open one to counters and that it's safer to parry and rotate the body to defend. At 15:36, Mark talks about using the dantian. I don't agree with everything Marks says.

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Aug 21, 2021

Brush knee defense & strike application in Taijiquan, presented by Shifu Mark Li (Li Tai Liang's son) of Chi Body.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EClMJIEovQ
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby yeniseri on Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:34 pm

Zheng Manqing had 'status' and everyone gave hims face, at least the many. His status as calligrapher, painter, etc allowed him to reach people he would not have otherwuse had access to.
Zheng Manqing was great because we know his name! He was responsible for much of what we know about tai chi and he trained enough people for them to propagate 'CMA"
His artist/intellectual circles allowed for the dissemination of tai chi around the world and for that he should be remembered.
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:20 pm

ZMC, learned what he could from those who were noted teachers of the time.




Image

WYN – I call Cheng Man Ching my older martial art brother. Why is that? That’s because he was a vowed student of Zhang Qinlin, who was also my teacher. What he studied with Zhang Qinlin was tuishou and neigong.


In the beginning Cheng Man Ching invited Zhang Qinlin, who had been living in Shanzi province, to Nanjing. He arranged for him to teach for three months. Then, in Nanjing, with Zhang Qinlin, Cheng practiced and studied tuishou for three months; the most important things that he asked Zhang Qinlin to teach him were tuishou and neigong.



https://nycymt.com/2017/04/14/wang-yen- ... man-ching/


The meeting between ZMC and ZQL was quite interesting...
it's important to test and understand skill...
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby Appledog on Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:50 pm

nicklinjm wrote:A lot of what is being discussed here has already been covered authoritatively in the article "Yang - One Family Across the Straits", translated here. https://discuss.yangfamilytaichi.com/viewtopic.php?t=4263

In a nutshell, Cheng Man-ching (CMC) did much of his initial training in Ye Dami's Wudang school, alongside Huang Jinghua and Pu Bingru, only later 'graduating' to become one of YCF's private students in Shanghai. It's also pretty clear that CMC learnt the neigong side of the art from Zhang Qinlin, not YCF directly. My impression is that while he was still on the mainland he wasn't considered one of YCF's main disciples who was entrusted with teaching in YCF's name, unlike say Li Yaxuan, Dong Yingjie, Wu Huichuan, Fu Zhongwen etc. However, he seems to have made great strides in his practice following his moves to Taiwan.


The above article is a hit piece against the shanghai crowd and lacks credibility. It also lacks consistency with it's own story.

Qu Shujin is not in any way an authority on the shanghai crowd. His portrayal of the players in the shanghai crowd is countered by the player's own words. For example he tries to paint Hu Yaozhen as a disciple of Zhang Qinling and claims Hu Yaozhen had no disciples but that Feng studied with him for 'a short while' after he and Chen Fa-Ke begged him to teach them Yang family neigong. It's such a transparently obvious article I'm surprised you got taken in by it enough to call it 'authoritative'.

But as for what's true I will comment again on what I said earlier. Zhang Qinlin studied daoist qigong. Outside of the yang family. This is admitted in Qu's work. Now, why would he want to do that if he got everything from the Yang family? Does this imply anything? No, not really, but it's an interesting aside that in many of these stories you will see people going back to the source and trying to reintegrate. I wonder if it's because internal development is actually quite difficult and time consuming.

In any case the cat was let out of the bag long ago (i,e, the Yang family does not solely control the secrets of Yang family taijiquan anymore). One of the interesting proofs by embarrassment is that throughout the article most of the high level masters discussed are not from the Yang family-- giving the strong impression that the Yang family is at best on par with the best of the non-family maters. I don't agree or disagree with this I just thought it would be interesting to point out. I'd also point out how Qu's teacher distanced himself from the Taiji community due to politics in the 50s. But I am sure that has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of the Shanghai crowd whatsoever. :)

Formosa Neijia wrote:Chen Pan-ling put him on his ass after getting tired of Zheng's nonsense. None of the main Taiwan taiji community considered him in high regard and his reputation seemed to come from mainly teaching people like CKS's wife and getting press from Robert Smith, etc.

taiwandeutscher wrote:Many older TW teachers and masters (from other arts) really don't have much good to say about ZMQ, especially because of his connections to the ruling KMT clique in those days, and the change to a more sohisticated health game for well-offs
.

You're really holding back. :D Didn't someone with interesting sideburns have an encounter with him?


Didn't want to say it.

BTW, today, KMT is really not in favor in Taiwan. FWIW. Me? I'd have a drink with anyone. Never been much into politics.
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:43 pm

Appledog wrote:Qu Shujin is not in any way an authority on the shanghai crowd. His portrayal of the players in the shanghai crowd is countered by the player's own words. For example he tries to paint Hu Yaozhen as a disciple of Zhang Qinling and claims Hu Yaozhen had no disciples but that Feng studied with him for 'a short while' after he and Chen Fa-Ke begged him to teach them Yang family neigong. It's such a transparently obvious article I'm surprised you got taken in by it enough to call it 'authoritative'.

But as for what's true I will comment again on what I said earlier. Zhang Qinlin studied daoist qigong. Outside of the yang family. This is admitted in Qu's work. Now, why would he want to do that if he got everything from the Yang family? Does this imply anything? No, not really, but it's an interesting aside that in many of these stories you will see people going back to the source and trying to reintegrate. I wonder if it's because internal development is actually quite difficult and time consuming.


Just for my own piece of mind, here is the title “Yang Taiji is One Family : Across the Straits” by Prof. Qu Shijing (“楊氏太極 兩岸一家” 瞿世鏡) for future reference.

The Yang family neigong and power generation based off of the heng/ha breathing isn't being widely taught at all. Most people are still unaware of it and it's not like the Yang's are trying to fill in the gaps. I keep warning people that the daoist stuff from Zhang is a major distraction AWAY from any martial neigong usage but so few people ever get to see anything that they are unable to tell the utility of the training. The heng/ha neigong of the Yang family is profound but doesn't take as much time on a daily basis to build whereas the daoist stuff is going to take 4 hours A DAY and won't improve your martial arts at all.

The further relevance to this thread is that some of ZMQs descendants got the heng/ha breathing neigong, qinna and a very useful version of push hands from white crane and others did not. Virtually all of the "martial" guys from ZMQ are in this former group and their material doesn't have the same feel as the taichi hippies from New York trained by ZMQ or the non-crane ZMQ guys in Taiwan.
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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby Graculus on Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:04 pm

For further background info you might like to check this thread from 2009 (18 pages worth :o ):
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5082&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=78fde05265cea3e80cefdf317c8dd22b

Plenty of opinions and stories on both sides of the argument – I recommend starting on page 4 to get a flavour of what's going on. Plenty of unverifiable (but still interesting) 2nd-hand stories leavened with a few personal anecdotes. Sure, it's gossip but all good clean fun if you don't take it too seriously. BTW interesting comment from Doc Stier towards the end of the thread:

Unlike most others posting on this thread, apparently including you, I actually met and interacted with Cheng Man-Ching on several occasions, as my late father-in-law was dating his daughter, and saw him perform both with and without weapons a number of times. I also personally witnessed a few of his gang control encounters on the streets of New York's Chinatown back in the day.

As such, with all due respect for your impassioned opinion, I think you go too far to say that Cheng was "a taiji practitioner of very average talent", or that Cheng was "a poser". Compared to other teachers in NYC at that time, guys like Wm. C.C. Chen, C.K. Chu, Donald Ahn, Herman Kauz, and others, Cheng Man-Ching consistently demonstrated a level of knowledge and skill well above and beyond what most would consider average. That's why many of them studied with Cheng for varying periods of time.


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Re: Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:06 pm

Graculus wrote:For further background info you might like to check this thread from 2009 (18 pages worth :o ):
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5082&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=78fde05265cea3e80cefdf317c8dd22b

It's fun to reread those 12 years post again. It seems to me that people discussed more openly back then.
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