Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Was master Zheng man qing 郑曼青 a genuine expert?

Postby AL2016 on Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:05 am

Hi

was he a genuine disciple of master yang chen fu?
Last edited by AL2016 on Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby Appledog on Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:47 am

The short answer is yes. But now that you know CMC was a genuine expert, let me point out to you that there is a huge mystery surrounding CMC and where he really got his skills from. From the standpoint of the Yang family taichi, "Yang Zhenduo went to great lengths to diferentiate between the types of movement exemplified in the Cheng Manching and his father’s style; and he made it clear that wanted to highlight essential requirements of his father’s style. These stylistic differences can be summarized by the difference in interpretation over the Chinese word “sung.” To the Cheng Manching stylists this word has always contained the ideas of being sunken, relaxed and empty. Yang Zhenduo, however, emphasized the characteristics of being open, extended and full." (https://discuss.yangfamilytaichi.com/vi ... 873389c531)

This has been my experience studying various yang style frames and seeing CMC's frame while living in taiwan.

I'll also point out that none of the names from the early days, such as Sun Jian Yun, really remember a CMC being present and part of the community. But he is on record. And he clearly would have had time to learn the entire long form (and learn it well) even in a six month period. So the idea that CMC style is not 'authentic' from the standpoint of being a real and powerful internal martial art should be discarded.

But there are mysteries. As mentioned earlier it was CMC himself who let the cat out of the bag by admitting he learned internal alchemy from a mysterious sage. There are other clues in his writings. And as usual the history and geography and biographies surrounding these events can often reveal hidden clues of great import.

https://www.taichiandqigong.com/article ... ng-styles/
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:10 am

AL2016 wrote:Hi
was he a genuine disciple of master yang chen fu?


Depends on who you ask.

He had at least one other TJQ teacher before YCF and practiced together with a couple of YCFs students. As I have understood CMC was more a private student than a real disciple and learned more Taiji from others than from YCF. Some people believe that CMCs 37 form, as well as his narrow upright stance, came from his first teacher who was a disciple of Yang Jianhou.

I don't remember exactly really the details, but I looked into this and are good reasons for believing this, and it made a lot of sense. For instance, Liu Da's teacher Li Lizhou was also a student of Yang Jianhou, and if you look at Liu's and Cheng's methods, then you will see that they are very much similar. CMC people say that Liu learned from CMC, but this is not correct. Liu let CMC stay at his apartment when CMC first came to New York. They practiced together and shared a lot, but their Taiji had also much in common to begin with.

So CMC probably used YCF's name to brand himself, but actually, his Tai Chi was more influenced by his first teacher.

Many of YCF disciples didn't like CMC, thought that he was both cocky and lazy. Tian Zhaolin supposedly have said "at least one hundred students" are better than CMC, meaning that he was the worst of the worst.

Personally, I don't believe that he was a real disciple, or at least that he had the same status as YCF's favourite students Li Yaxuan and Tian Zhaolin. If you would ask me, CMS was probably a private student and not much more. But you should probably not ask me, as just about everyone says that CMC was a disciple, so they are obviously correct, not me.... :P
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:15 am

Image
To Yang Zhenduo, the Cheng Manching style would appear weak and collapsed. To the Cheng stylist, the Yang style might appear too overextended or external.


https://www.taichiandqigong.com/article ... ng-styles/


Comparing different frames
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:23 am

Zhang Qinlin (1888–1967) was an influential martial artist, teacher, and lineage holder of the Yangjia Michuan (Yang family hidden tradition) style of t’ai chi ch’uan. In 1929, Zhang won the All China Fighting Championship in the unarmed division.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Qinlin

ZMC had different taiji teachers, one of the more noted ones, Zhang Qinlin...

Who taught him, push hands....

Publicly his main teacher noted was YCF....

YCF had other students who would later go on to develop their own methods based on his teachings

Among Yang Chengfu's students were famous masters such as Tung Ying-chieh (Dong Yingjie, 董英杰; 1898–1961), Chen Weiming, Fu Zhongwen (Fu Chung-wen, 1903–1994), Li Yaxuan (李雅轩; 1894–1976) and Cheng Man-ch'ing.

Each of them taught extensively, founding groups teaching T'ai chi to this day.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:31 am

Bao wrote: But you should probably not ask me, as just about everyone says that CMC was a disciple, so they are obviously correct, not me.... :P


If people shouldn't ask you, why post
is there some point ? :-\

Anyone having studied with teacher Ben Lo, "Ben". one of the noted students of ZMC

would know that what looks easy is not so easy...... :)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:38 am

Found it,

foreword to YCF's Taijiquan shi yongfa, written by CMC:

"In 1923, I assumed a teaching position at Beijing Fine Arts Academy. A colleague, Liu Yongchen, was good at this art of Taijiquan. Because I was emaciated and weak, he urged me to study. Barely a month passed before I had to quit because of important commitments, so I was not able to catch on to the art."

This teacher is also mentioned in an interview with CMC, starting from page 18. Here he is referred to as "Liu Yung-Tao", but it's the same person:

https://books.google.se/books?id=KdkDAA ... &q&f=false
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:40 am

windwalker wrote:If people shouldn't ask you, why post
is there some point ? :-\


Just trying to be humble. ;D
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:58 am

Having studied under a Direct student of one of the “Tung/Dong” Family members,
later to go to study under a direct student of ZMC, as well as in some of Ben’s classes.

The approaches are quite different.
With ZMC, the method and approach more similar to what
I practice and work with now under my last teacher.

As with many things in CMA, there are many stories that one can find supporting a view point.

Direct experience always the best way to know
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby everything on Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:20 am

> ben lo

i had some experience at ben lo's camps. as ww and many others here say, you actually have to "feel". how did he get that skill? he said he did exactly what his teacher told him to do, and asked us to do certain things. he made us zhan zhuang for hours. i didn't understand that at the time. other than that, it's hard to say things about "frame" and so on. looking only at "external" things, pacquiao, ali, tyson, mayweather, jr. seem to have different "frames" to me. messi and ronaldo have different "frames".
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby Bob on Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:47 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL0NHggkDcU

he Drunken Boxing Podcast #022

My guest today is none other than Mario Napoli. I heard about Mario many many years ago. He rose to fame due to the fact that he was the first and the last non Chinese to enter the Chen village push hands championships and win. After he did this, aspects of participation were changed permanently to avoid such things from happening again in such a manner.

Mario’s study of the art of Taiji was through his teacher, Stanley Israel, who was a highly respected Judo teacher in new York in the mid 20th century and his skill in the art was well known. However, Stan met the famed Zheng Manqing or Chen Manching who was a highly acclaimed pioneer in the USA who taught taijiquan in New York. Stan was instantly impressed with his skill and started his study of taijiquan under him. It was from this solid base that Mario began his study in to the art which took him to achieve what he did.

Mario Napoli's YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/mnpli


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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby robert on Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:25 pm

One thing interesting about ZMQ is that there is a fair amount of video of him. Here's a video of ZMQ that says he's in his 60's and if that's so it's likely only a few years before his book on his form, but it looks fairly different than the stills in the book, it looks more expansive. The form starts around 1:20.

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:52 pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ629uzqqg0
Taijiquan has extremely profound internal skills, which embodies the essence of Chinese martial arts. Zheng Manqing's Taijiquan Kung Fu Exploration. Pine is the core of Zheng Zi's Taijiquan. sport


nice over view showing some of ZMC famous students in action.
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby nicklinjm on Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:45 pm

A lot of what is being discussed here has already been covered authoritatively in the article "Yang - One Family Across the Straits", translated here. https://discuss.yangfamilytaichi.com/viewtopic.php?t=4263

In a nutshell, Cheng Man-ching (CMC) did much of his initial training in Ye Dami's Wudang school, alongside Huang Jinghua and Pu Bingru, only later 'graduating' to become one of YCF's private students in Shanghai. It's also pretty clear that CMC learnt the neigong side of the art from Zhang Qinlin, not YCF directly. My impression is that while he was still on the mainland he wasn't considered one of YCF's main disciples who was entrusted with teaching in YCF's name, unlike say Li Yaxuan, Dong Yingjie, Wu Huichuan, Fu Zhongwen etc. However, he seems to have made great strides in his practice following his moves to Taiwan.
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Re: Was master Chen manh chin considered as a genuine expert ?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:54 pm

Might just be that CMC didn't want to teach in YCF,s name
He did have a few other things going on
Just have to look at all the great martial artists in Malaysia reduced to tears upon his death
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