New way to train form

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New way to train form

Postby johnwang on Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:31 pm

Have you tried the following form training method?

You divide your form into part 1, part 2, ... .

1. Do part 1 (for example, right front kick, left straight punch, ...).
2. Do the reverse of Part 1 (for example, left front kick, right straight punch, ...).
3. Repeat 1, 2 10 times.
4. Move into part 2 ...

The advantage of this training method are:

- You will develop both sides equally.
- You will concentrate on part of the form (more detail) than the entire form.

What's your opinion on this form training method?
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Re: New way to train form

Postby yeniseri on Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:03 pm

A great way to make form part of your being!
Repeated posture practice is the best way to integrate form and function. Diagonal flying and fair lady (both sides), brush knee with reverse punch, etc. but it does not work well in group practice as students do not show up for practice as they claim it is boring ??? In my old age, I do it more than 2 decades ago though I did train as it as I was younger.

Playing brush knee back and forth a 30ft area then returning to where you start has killed many a direction in greater CMA! and that is just the beginning.
Even though I started with TKD, I incorporated many conditioning elements that appear to have a lasting value on training BAsically it is the 1-3 step "sparring, for lack of a better use of the descriptive

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Re: New way to train form

Postby GrahamB on Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:43 am

It would be a good way of balancing left and right... but it would do nothing for your creativity. How about knowing a form so well that you can add in spontaneous freestyle variations as you go?
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Re: New way to train form

Postby GrahamB on Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:37 am

...which made me think about the role of creativity in forms..... https://thetaichinotebook.com/2022/02/0 ... reativity/
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Re: New way to train form

Postby Bob on Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:49 am

I just don't fathom a pre-occupation with "doing the form on both sides".

The very first day I learned the Yang style (Wutan) we began with 4 moving postures - brush knee, part the wild horses mane, squatting heel kicks, and 45 degree, twist stance toe kicks (didn't have great translations in in early 1980s). We went up and down a 50 yard field (backyard) with each posture and no breaks until all 4 were completed. Later we learned additional single moving postures to employ up and down the field - this is what we started with before we even touched a form. This also made learning the applications a bit easier. This resolved any problem I had with doing the form on both sides.

You can also hold standing postures of the form independently of the linkage - I understand that some of the early students of Zheng Manqing started this way, learning one posture a month - and it would be just a matter of adding movement to each to resolve the dilemma of doing the form on both sides.

Of course, in latter years, I ran into a Yang style lineage holder and when I told him this he of course said it was too external and we never would get it it - However, as I told him, you could add internal training such as posture holding to it anytime you wished along with practicing a short form.
Last edited by Bob on Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New way to train form

Postby origami_itto on Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:02 am

johnwang wrote:Have you tried the following form training method?

You divide your form into part 1, part 2, ... .

1. Do part 1 (for example, right front kick, left straight punch, ...).
2. Do the reverse of Part 1 (for example, left front kick, right straight punch, ...).
3. Repeat 1, 2 10 times.
4. Move into part 2 ...

The advantage of this training method are:

- You will develop both sides equally.
- You will concentrate on part of the form (more detail) than the entire form.

What's your opinion on this form training method?


So when you say "form" here, do you mean a long boxing sequence of 37, 108 postures, etc, or do you mean like a single movement like brush knee or single whip?

I think drilling single movements on both sides is a good idea. It can also open some new neural pathways doing a sequence on the reverse side.

In push hands drills I generally try to do four variations, one with left foot forward, left hand "leading" (not really the right word), then left foot right hand, right foot left hand, right foot right hand, for example.

It gets a bit complicated sometimes, some techniques work more easily from particular positions, some don't work at all from some positions.

As far as creativity. It depends on what you're working on at the time. Generally you need to be clear about the purpose and process of a training activity. Like polishing a gem, you need to pay attention to one facet at a time to keep the edges hard and defined or they'll round off.

So I enjoy being creative and free flowing in my movements. Sometimes I train form strictly. I'm training different things at those times.
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Re: New way to train form

Postby Bob on Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:04 am

Yep, I forgot - Yeniseri is right - it doesn't work well with groups (reduces the class size relatively quick and not a good sell for the "elderly" beginner) and it's a tough sell for the general public to train this way - there was always a praying mantis backup class going on to help pay the rent LOL
Last edited by Bob on Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New way to train form

Postby robert on Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:33 am

I don't do form on both sides, but I don't think you need to do every posture on both sides. I've been taught kick drills and they're done on both sides and the same with fajin drills, Line drills are often done on both sides, either alternating or do a line on one side and then come back doing the other side. Yun shou can be done both directions and so on.

Here's a video of some training at Chen Bing's school. Start around 4:10.

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: New way to train form

Postby HotSoup on Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:02 am

Doing it on both sides is more harm than good, IMO. Contrary to popular belief, there is zero scientific proof of improving brain functions of any type by training ambidexterity. There actually is some research demonstrating harmful effects of such training on the development of human neural system (e.g. in kids). 99% of humans have a dominant hand/side, be it left or right. And it is so for a reason.
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Re: New way to train form

Postby johnwang on Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:19 pm

oragami_itto wrote:So when you say "form" here, do you mean a long boxing sequence of 37, 108 postures, etc, or do you mean like a single movement like brush knee or single whip?

I will do the "grasp sparrow's tail" on one side (ward off, pull back, press forward, push, double pulling, single whip), and then do the reverse on the other side.

The 1st basic long fist form Tan Tui and SC basic form were all designed this way.



Last edited by johnwang on Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New way to train form

Postby greytowhite on Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:04 pm

Sounds a lot like how we train bagua... Some days I choose a few postures from the from and make small changes or will focus on 2-3 changes.
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Re: New way to train form

Postby origami_itto on Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:08 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:So when you say "form" here, do you mean a long boxing sequence of 37, 108 postures, etc, or do you mean like a single movement like brush knee or single whip?

I will do the "grasp sparrow's tail" on one side (ward off, pull back, press forward, push, double pulling, single whip), and then do the reverse on the other side.

The 1st basic long fist form Tan Tui and SC basic form were all designed this way.





I really don't see anything wrong with it. There's no hard data on whether it's beneficial or harmful but my thinking leads me to believe it's beneficial. T.T. Liang counted mastering the mirror side of the form to be a component of competence. There's some other Yang teacher who's name escapes me that developed a two-sided form specifically to address "balancing" the sides.

Maybe it's not helpful for everyone. Some people have a greater capacity for ambidexterity. I've known people that could draw two completely different pictures simultaneously using both hands. Most people if they tried would probably do worse on both. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer.

When I lived alone and had lots of free time, some Saturday's I'd belt my right hand to my body at the elbow to force myself to use my left hand for the day. It's a trip. What I found most interesting was that tasks I could usually do easily with my left hand, such as drinking from a coffee cup, got a little bit more complicated with my right hand immobilized vs free. The subtle change from normal operations was enough to throw the whole system off a little.
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Re: New way to train form

Postby origami_itto on Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:08 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:So when you say "form" here, do you mean a long boxing sequence of 37, 108 postures, etc, or do you mean like a single movement like brush knee or single whip?

I will do the "grasp sparrow's tail" on one side (ward off, pull back, press forward, push, double pulling, single whip), and then do the reverse on the other side.

The 1st basic long fist form Tan Tui and SC basic form were all designed this way.





I really don't see anything wrong with it. There's no hard data on whether it's beneficial or harmful but my thinking leads me to believe it's beneficial. T.T. Liang counted mastering the mirror side of the form to be a component of competence. There's some other Yang teacher who's name escapes me that developed a two-sided form specifically to address "balancing" the sides.

Maybe it's not helpful for everyone. Some people have a greater capacity for ambidexterity. I've known people that could draw two completely different pictures simultaneously using both hands. Most people if they tried would probably do worse on both. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer.

When I lived alone and had lots of free time, some Saturday's I'd belt my right hand to my body at the elbow to force myself to use my left hand for the day. It's a trip. What I found most interesting was that tasks I could usually do easily with my left hand, such as drinking from a coffee cup, got a little bit more complicated with my right hand immobilized vs free. The subtle change from normal operations was enough to throw the whole system off a little.
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Re: New way to train form

Postby marvin8 on Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:28 am

oragami_itto wrote:I really don't see anything wrong with it. There's no hard data on whether it's beneficial or harmful but my thinking leads me to believe it's beneficial. T.T. Liang counted mastering the mirror side of the form to be a component of competence. There's some other Yang teacher who's name escapes me that developed a two-sided form specifically to address "balancing" the sides.

At 1:14 and 7:29, Max Chen says he teaches doing form on both sides.

Apr 8, 2021
Lincoln Goines

On location interview at William C.C. Chen Tai Chi Chuan: Push Hands / Lei-Tai / San Shou / mixed martial arts champion Maximillion “Max” C.J. Chen shares training insights and experiences.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpch7VMNTCI

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Dec 20, 2021

Here's a 2020 prototype version of W.C.C. Chen's Yang Style Short Form to both the right and left sides, integrated into a single form with attention to symmetry and minimal overlapping.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIPI3faj1KU
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Re: New way to train form

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:27 am

HotSoup wrote:Doing it on both sides is more harm than good, IMO. Contrary to popular belief, there is zero scientific proof of improving brain functions of any type by training ambidexterity. There actually is some research demonstrating harmful effects of such training on the development of human neural system (e.g. in kids). 99% of humans have a dominant hand/side, be it left or right. And it is so for a reason.

Opinions are a dime a dozen. Here's my dime's worth as I was taught.

The traditional Sun Style Pa-Kua Chuan and Shansi Hsing-I Chuan styles I was taught train all form set movements, drills, and palm changes on both sides as a part of the standard curriculum already.

Similarly, the older early versions of Yang Style TCC I was taught require learning and practicing the form sets in mirror image, i.e. to the opposite direction of the standard norm, in order to harmonize both hemispheres of the brain; to develop equal strength, flexibility, balance, and body control on both sides of the body; and to identify sections of the form set which lack clarity in sequence visualization or uncertainty regarding physical performance of the transitional movements between the named and numbered postures of the form set sequence in the normal direction of practice.

If a practitioner has difficulty mentally envisioning the movement sequence of the form as it is normally taught and practiced, or has difficulty in physically performing the transitional movements between the named postures without breaks or pauses and changes of speed or rhythm, they will usually be unable to visualize and perform those parts of the form as a mirror image in the other direction.

Thus, practicing the form sets both ways insures that the standard performance is consistent, clear, and correct. It worked for me, but ymmv.
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