New way to train form

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: New way to train form

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:56 am

Peacedog wrote:The biggest advantage to training both sides is to avoid unilateral development of the body. This really screws people up over time. I've seen this happen with weapons training that was conducted one sided as well.

Look at the body of a baseball pitcher, or archer, and ask yourself, "does this look like a great idea?"

Unilateral movement over time creates a lot of problems in the body. Most of which won't show up until you are much older at which point you just get to live with the pain.

I was big into archery in my mid-teens. Forty years later one side of my back is notably larger than my right.

If you are doing something professionally, maybe the light is worth the candle. If this is a hobby, then it is a very bad idea.


Did you train for hunting or target

For hunters, some may only need or want the accuracy to take a whitetail deer at 30 yards or less. This may mean they personally only need 20-30 shots per week practicing in the months leading up to deer season to be proficient.

For the champion recurve and compound target shooters, this may mean 150-250 arrows shot per day for the month leading up to a large tournament. These numbers will vary largely by the goal set by the shooter.


For those who shoot

They may know that one can also have a dominant eye...this should be used to aim the weapon with..
No amount of training I'm aware of can change this..its genetic....
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10537
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: New way to train form

Postby johnwang on Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:26 am

Morty wrote:Thinking about this I have to remember the photo of GM Chang's feet sifu Wang posted here a few years ago. :D

As far as opinions go:
Train for fight, train one side.
Train for health, train both sides.

All GM Chang's life, he had only used his "leg twisting" on his right foot. You can see a mark on his right foot only.

For

- general skill, you train both sides.
- door guarding skill, you train one side only.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10237
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: New way to train form

Postby Peacedog on Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:09 pm

Archery for me was for target.

So, the volume was pretty high.

I gave it up when I met older guys and saw that their drawing arm was almost twice the size of the arm they held the bow with.
Peacedog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:22 am
Location: Standing right next to your girl....

Re: New way to train form

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:11 pm

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,

http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition

太極拳架是前人把各種應敵之招綜合起來編成的套路。不論哪一種套路都不是固定不變的,在 練習中,可以根據需要改。但必須遵循理論的要求進行練習,才能練出功夫。


Tai Chi Chuan forms were created by the Elders from stringing together fighting techniques and postures.

Regardless the form set, it’s not true that they cannot be changed.

When you practice, you may change it according to your needs.

However, you must follow the requirements of the theory and principles,
for the gong fu to improve.


"according to your needs".

Seems very sensible
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10537
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: New way to train form

Postby Giles on Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:41 pm

Peacedog wrote:The biggest advantage to training both sides is to avoid unilateral development of the body. This really screws people up over time. I've seen this happen with weapons training that was conducted one sided as well.

Look at the body of a baseball pitcher, or archer, and ask yourself, "does this look like a great idea?"

Unilateral movement over time creates a lot of problems in the body. Most of which won't show up until you are much older at which point you just get to live with the pain.


I was big into archery in my mid-teens. Forty years later one side of my back is notably larger than my right.

If you are doing something professionally, maybe the light is worth the candle. If this is a hobby, then it is a very bad idea.


I agree with the basic idea here. Long-term one-sided movement, or movement just putting the emphasis on one side, is very likely to create or increase pelvic obliquity and scoliosis (in all its variations). And these in turn lead to all kinds of physical problems and pain, not only in the back and pelvis/hips but also in the neck, shoulders, knees and feet. Especially as one grows older. (May also reflect in a torqued sphenoid bone and lesions in the spheno-occipital synchondrosis, which can have further negative effects, but that's another story).

On the other hand, that doesn't mean that a tai chi form that isn't completely symmetrical, such as the Yang variations, will mess you up. Not as long as you do plenty of other basic exercises that really are symmetrical in their effect. Jibengong exercises on both sides, training staff and stick on both sides, club swinging on both sides (of course...) and lots of other stuff. And doing tui shou and applications on both sides. In free tui shou I find a 'single whip' on the reverse side appears quite often, even though it's not in my form. Although probably not as often as on the 'right' - which is maybe a pity, but also no big deal.

And as someone who does a lot of computer work (writing/translating) I switch my mouse from side to side every week or two. If I don't, I start to get the first hints of RSI.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1345
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: New way to train form

Postby Quigga on Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:06 pm

Didn't even know the wasp bone existed. Interesting, thank you!
Quigga

 

Re: New way to train form

Postby yfaway on Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:56 pm

I just tried practice the mirror version of the Yang-based form, and that was definitely interesting and enriching. It wasn't easy. I had to keep switching back to the regular version to *remember* the move. It definitely forces one to really know the fundamental meaning of each movement to get it done right. I only got the first 17 moves so far, and I think I will incorporate this as part of my practices.

Thanks all for sharing.
yfaway
Santi
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:50 pm

Re: New way to train form

Postby MiaoZhen on Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:41 am

Just some information to add... Feng Zhiqiang, when he taught, did not have students repeat the form in mirror (i.e., the entire form on the opposite side). However, he did have students practice single postures out of the form over and over again (and variations on those postures) on both sides. Then, the applications of those forms were also done on both sides. Push hands exercises were also done on both sides. The form itself doesn't have to be done in mirror image to get more bilateral training in. A lot of Feng's teaching, especially in his earlier days, was along these lines.

This is how we still practice when I work out with my teacher, and when I train my students.
Dr Henry Ma 馬爾博
--所以練拳術不在形式。只在神氣圓滿無虧而已。
MiaoZhen
Santi
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:53 pm

Re: New way to train form

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:07 pm

You can practice the form one sided and still be balanced
In fact that is the point
It is bad form that is lopsided
When I became an instructor in Wu style from the first day we had to do it mirror image to our students
No pre warning it was just how it was done
It had several benfefits one being ego adjustment
Another respect for beginners
If the 5 steps are balanced with the 8 gates it matters little which side you practice
Another thing I will mention here
Several years back I noticed in application I would often do the movements on the opposite side to how I practiced them in the form
I don’t know why but it sure is interesting
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5620
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: New way to train form

Postby origami_itto on Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:17 pm

I've had the same experience. Movements I do in the form on one side will appear spontaneously on the other side.

When I used to spend more time in bars I won a few free drinks flipping coasters. I learned how to flip a stack in each hand simultaneously by just focusing on my strong hand and just telling the other side to follow. I could not flip a single stack with my left hand alone.

The nervous system is strange.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 4990
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: New way to train form

Postby Giles on Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:28 pm

wayne hansen wrote:You can practice the form one sided and still be balanced
In fact that is the point
It is bad form that is lopsided
.........................
Several years back I noticed in application I would often do the movements on the opposite side to how I practiced them in the form
I don’t know why but it sure is interesting


Yeah, I think if your alignment is good in an asymmetric movement/technique done on one side, there's a good chance it will automatically translate to the reverse side. If your execution of the move involves errors of alignment/structure, however, it won't serve as a good blueprint for 'automatic reversal'.
Nonetheless, in my classes I often train the 'Grasp Sparrow's Tail' sequence (i.e. peng, lu, ji, an) in a never-ending loop for my students: 'normal' side, other side, normal side, other side etc. etc. with a sort of 'cloud-handy change step' in between to keep the flow going during the switch. We sometimes keep this going for 20 minutes. It's also well appreciated, so why not? A good way of balancing out the body and brain halves, and to help them to find the 'other sided' basic techniques more easily in application.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1345
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: New way to train form

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:52 pm

When I was young after all the walking sets without hand movements
I learnt the 5 flows

GST
BKTS
RM
CH
WH
both left and right
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5620
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: New way to train form

Postby origami_itto on Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:46 am

wayne hansen wrote:When I was young after all the walking sets without hand movements
I learnt the 5 flows

GST
BKTS
RM
CH
WH
both left and right

So I'm learning the Dong Jia Simplified form, and it has almost everything mirrored, all of those of course.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 4990
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: New way to train form

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:26 am

I have never heard of that form
The first form I learnt in 1973 was the Lee Ying Arn form that had all the repiticions removed and balanced left and right
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5620
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: New way to train form

Postby origami_itto on Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:56 am

wayne hansen wrote:I have never heard of that form
The first form I learnt in 1973 was the Lee Ying Arn form that had all the repiticions removed and balanced left and right


I think it's relatively new. It's their beginner form. Same basic idea as the CMC or beijing 24, but their own sequence. Something easier for newcomers and health only folks to work with.

They've got a lot of forms in the curriculum
Created by Yang Cheng Fu
- Yang style form
Created by Alex:
- Dong style simplified
- Dong style advanced
Created by Dong Ying Jie
- Fast/Fajin form
- Kai/He (Hao) form
Last edited by origami_itto on Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 4990
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests