xingyiquan origins documentary part 1

[everything]

maybe someone already posted a thread, can't remember. almost done with part 1. very interesting.

[wayne hansen]

Nice doco
Interesting how he puts YLC in the 3 day fight
Is that because he teaches Tai chi as well
I wonder if the change in Hsing I was due to age as stated or personal development and thus an improvement

[everything]

hmm I think I must've missed something if YLC was mentioned.

I'm on part 2 now at the visit with the Dai family where they say their beng is upward as an example of a difference with xyq.

[nicklinjm]

I'm the guy in the green shirt in the vid, Tang Shengjun did mention Yang Luchan being in the contest with Guo Yunshen and Dong Haichuan but that is the first time I have ever heard that, can't think of any historical source that puts YLC around or at that contest.

As for the reasons for the differences between Dai style and xingyiquan I don't think we will ever know for definite as the people involved are long gone. Think the Dai inheritors are right that LLN was not taught the whole art, but he managed to take what he had learnt (including quite a few of the dantian methods) and turn it into a powerful, effective martial art in its own right.

[everything]

oh wow I think you're the main interviewer in a lot of the visits then? thanks for making this great video. just stumbled across this one, and it's fascinating. It makes me curious about xingyiquan and related arts. I like how everyone you talk to seems so open and down to earth, and explains things in a straightforward way. And how their stories seem to combine into a clear overall story. Or at least, it feels that way. Ah, I see the YLC mention now. Never seen that mentioned anywhere, either. had to go back and check and see if his lifetime period is around the same time as Guo's and Dong's, and it seems their lifetimes mostly overlapped. So it seems theoretically possible? "History" of what is widely written and "oral history" of what maybe a few generations in a family mention is an interesting tangent ... seems like your video now records something that may have happened that was never recorded, but now future people have a data point to consider... hmm....

It also is interesting how much cross-over there was between different practitioners of those "big 3" arts. This made me go back and read the Miller/Cartmell book/translation's many small biographies. It mentions LLN traveled widely for his bodyguard service, refined/added, and was an innovator.

super cool stuff. are you helping with more videos? or I guess it's because this one was xyq focused?

[nicklinjm]

Yep I was the main interviewer (mostly for language reasons, just easier). Those 3 people (Dong, Yang and Guo) definitely overlapped, late Qing period Beijing was a hotbed of high quality martial artists. It's not certain that YLC himself ever met Dong but his son Yang Banhou would very likely have met Yin Fu and his top student Ma Gui in the palace of Prince Duan (Zaiyi), as he was one of the instructors there.

The main reason for my involvement in that one was because it was focused on xingyi. Will - the creator and main moving force behind the entire series - has talked about doing another series focusing on Cangzhou martial arts (tongbei, pigua, baji), which I would be v interested in joining as well - but we'll have to see, lot of factors that would have to line up for that to happen (not least covid!).

[windwalker]

The history is quite interesting

Dong and Yang were on very friendly terms, they were introduced to each other by Song Mailun, the head of the largest security company in the capitol, and great master of San Huang Paochui.

Yang and Dong had one known encounter. It was at one of those huge garden restaurants popular in Beijing at the time.
A large group of people were present at the party. At some point they got up and went outside to the garden, closing the doors behind them.

When they came back after a while, both praised each other’s skill. Within Taijiquan circles, legend had it Yang said afterwards Dong was able to neutralize all of his attacks.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif

[everything]

for some reason I never read that story. I need to read more stories about that "golden generation"/era. it must've really been something. something I guess we will never have again, unfortunately. you guys who have been a little closer to these "sources" are very lucky. also have no idea what those other cangzhou arts are about. cool series I gotta start watching - hope you get to do that one, nicklinjm.

[littlepanda]

Dai xinyi quan does not have santishi posture. So did Li Luoneng create santi posture?

[nicklinjm]

I have to say the Yang vs Dong story is quite a bit different than, say the contest between Wan Laisheng and Yang Chengfu or many of Wang Xiangzhai's exploits. For the latter, there is actually quite a lot of written evidence (contemporary newspaper articles and books) showing what actually happened. The details of any supposed meeting between Yang and Dong are always hazy, still have not seen any specifics about where and when they are supposed to have met.

@littlepanda, yes, it's pretty certain that Santi was LLN's innovation - in LLN's time the posture was called Ling Bu Zhuang (agile step post), only later started to be called Santi. (This is based on conversations MA researchers had with LLN's great-grandson Li Jingquan, who passed away many years ago).

[Appledog]

I'm the guy in the green shirt in the vid, Tang Shengjun did mention Yang Luchan being in the contest with Guo Yunshen and Dong Haichuan but that is the first time I have ever heard that, can't think of any historical source that puts YLC around or at that contest.

As for the reasons for the differences between Dai style and xingyiquan I don't think we will ever know for definite as the people involved are long gone. Think the Dai inheritors are right that LLN was not taught the whole art, but he managed to take what he had learnt (including quite a few of the dantian methods) and turn it into a powerful, effective martial art in its own right.

First, thanks for being involved, it's a wonderfully informative documentary. That being said I am suprised to hear you say that "I don't think we will ever know.." given the video's clear message that LLN changed squatting monkey into san ti shi, etc. This is not only said outright by at least two different masters in the video, but it is also demonstrated by at least a third, showing how squatting monkey directly relates to the posture. They also show things like 'old pi chuan' and it just seems obvious to me based on those things, a logical conclusion would be this is how he changed it. What other kinds of evidence would you be looking for before it's safe to say we know (vs "I don't think we will ever know for definite...")?

[nicklinjm]

When I said "I don't think we will ever know for sure", I meant being 100% sure it was LLN himself who made the change. For example, there is a branch of Dai style in the northeast of China passed on by a teacher from Qi county called Chen Mingjie which has Santi in it. Chen Mingjie studied from both Dai Kui and Cheng Da (one of Guo Weihan's disciples). So there is a possibility that Santi was already present in Guo Weihan's system (although Jarek's on the ground research seems to have ruled that out).

[Appledog]

When I said "I don't think we will ever know for sure", I meant being 100% sure it was LLN himself who made the change. For example, there is a branch of Dai style in the northeast of China passed on by a teacher from Qi county called Chen Mingjie which has Santi in it. Chen Mingjie studied from both Dai Kui and Cheng Da (one of Guo Weihan's disciples). So there is a possibility that Santi was already present in Guo Weihan's system (although Jarek's on the ground research seems to have ruled that out).

Wow. Well you guys certainly have done your research. You have really done some important work here. I heard some rumors that you and the other guy may go back for a second deeper dive into the history of xingyi. You know, hearing these people talk about history and the lives of past practitioners, is really valuable. There is a lot to consider and learn just from the history and biographies surrounding the art. Thanks again!

[wayne hansen]

That’s if Will can escape from WA

[Finny]

That’s if Will can escape from WA

Hahahaha McGowan says no.