xingyiquan origins documentary part 1

[greytowhite]

The main reason for my involvement in that one was because it was focused on xingyi. Will - the creator and main moving force behind the entire series - has talked about doing another series focusing on Cangzhou martial arts (tongbei, pigua, baji), which I would be v interested in joining as well - but we'll have to see, lot of factors that would have to line up for that to happen (not least covid!).

If this happens I'd love to see some exposure of the Cangzhou Wujiquan sets.

[salcanzonieri]

Well, according to the Shaolin Encyclopedia, which was written after decades of research in the Shaolin area countryside and all the way to Malaysia and Indonesia as well.
So, the reason Yue Fei is credited for the founding of various CMA is because his troops practiced a Short Strike system, based on using weapons as if empty handed. When they returned home, they spread this art throughout Henan. Most all the XY and XYLH animals forms can be found in forms of the Yue Fei style (which was what his troops called it.
This of course was also incorporated in Shaolin as well. And this Shaolin Yue Fei Duan Da (short strike) style was a heavy influence on the formation of such styles as Preying Mantis and Red Opera Boat Wing Chun. Both styles contain the Duan Da material within their styles. Also, in Beijing Yue Fei Duan Da and Yue Fei San Shou was the basis for Eagle Claw style and for Liu DeKwan's liner Bagua form (which has no Bagua in it), Liu used it for foundational training.

There is a strong Deng Feng village early connection to XYLH Quan directly from Ji JiKe (Ji Long Feng).
Anyway, there is a direct line from Ji LongFeng to Ma Xue Li, thusly:

Wang Yi & Wang Kai 王益 王恺（1710-?）
They were the sons of Wang Zhicheng, and inherited the skills from their father. They spent their lives practicing and perfecting those skills, and from oral tradition we hear that they were also working as merchants at some point, and spent a lot of time in Dengfeng and in the Shaolin temple. What they practiced and taught retained the original simple but efficient flavor of Ji Long's teachings.
________________________________________

Wang Zhi Cheng 王志诚（1680-?）
Wang Zhicheng, one of Zheng Wukui's disciples, was from Xin'an County, Henan Province (He may have also been known as Henan Fu Li). He was a famous Martial Arts master during the Qianlong Dynasty. According to the manuscripts, he was taught by Zheng WuKui. He then wrote down everything he learned from him. Hu Zhengsheng has inherited several of his (original) writings, which summarize the theory of Xinyiba and Liuhequan.
According to some researchers, he is the one who taught Ma Xueli and Li Chunchen (which also makes more sense chronologically than the common lineage trees). Ma and later Dai Longbang further developed the style, and invented ten forms, Four Movements, etc. But prior to them, there were no Taolu / collections of movements.They created Xinyi Liu He Quan. Wang’s best and closest students were his two sons, who were also the ones who brought their knowledge once more into the Shaolin Temple.
________________________________________

Zheng Wu Kui 郑武奎（1660-? ）
Zheng Wukui (also known as Nan Shan Zheng), one of Ji Long's disciples, taught Martial Arts during Qianlong Dynasty, and was from Dengfeng County, Henan Province. He was recorded in the Nanshan Zheng Shi (Lit. "South of Mt. Song" - signifying Dengfeng - "Zheng family records") as well as in the documents written by his disciple Wang Zhicheng and various historical documents. Zheng being from Dengfeng, it is most likely that the first contact between Shaolin Temple and Xinyiba was through him.

[everything]

Would love to see more primary research on the weapons sets.

Intuitively with no xyq teacher, if I run through five elements holding weapons, it makes so much sense immediately. It makes the spear origin aspect of these stories seem so believable.

Would love to hear what modern experts say/show

[Bob]

Pretty close to how I learned these (Origin from San Dang Qi - Taiwan)

Side Note - You can do these both in-place and moving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmXmsh1SQsQ

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

I have to say the Yang vs Dong story is quite a bit different than, say the contest between Wan Laisheng and Yang Chengfu or many of Wang Xiangzhai's exploits. For the latter, there is actually quite a lot of written evidence (contemporary newspaper articles and books) showing what actually happened. The details of any supposed meeting between Yang and Dong are always hazy, still have not seen any specifics about where and when they are supposed to have met.

@littlepanda, yes, it's pretty certain that Santi was LLN's innovation - in LLN's time the posture was called Ling Bu Zhuang (agile step post), only later started to be called Santi. (This is based on conversations MA researchers had with LLN's great-grandson Li Jingquan, who passed away many years ago).

There is actually, Xinyiliuhequan "san qi shi" or 3/7 posture, so named after the bodyweight distribution. It is maybe also called, Jibu zhuang or chicken step.

DZQ

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

When I said "I don't think we will ever know for sure", I meant being 100% sure it was LLN himself who made the change. For example, there is a branch of Dai style in the northeast of China passed on by a teacher from Qi county called Chen Mingjie which has Santi in it. Chen Mingjie studied from both Dai Kui and Cheng Da (one of Guo Weihan's disciples). So there is a possibility that Santi was already present in Guo Weihan's system (although Jarek's on the ground research seems to have ruled that out).

I would love a chance to go and check that stuff out some time.

DZQ

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Well, according to the Shaolin Encyclopedia, which was written after decades of research in the Shaolin area countryside and all the way to Malaysia and Indonesia as well.
So, the reason Yue Fei is credited for the founding of various CMA is because his troops practiced a Short Strike system, based on using weapons as if empty handed. When they returned home, they spread this art throughout Henan. Most all the XY and XYLH animals forms can be found in forms of the Yue Fei style (which was what his troops called it.
This of course was also incorporated in Shaolin as well. And this Shaolin Yue Fei Duan Da (short strike) style was a heavy influence on the formation of such styles as Preying Mantis and Red Opera Boat Wing Chun. Both styles contain the Duan Da material within their styles. Also, in Beijing Yue Fei Duan Da and Yue Fei San Shou was the basis for Eagle Claw style and for Liu DeKwan's liner Bagua form (which has no Bagua in it), Liu used it for foundational training.

There is a strong Deng Feng village early connection to XYLH Quan directly from Ji JiKe (Ji Long Feng).
Anyway, there is a direct line from Ji LongFeng to Ma Xue Li, thusly:

Wang Yi & Wang Kai 王益 王恺（1710-?）
They were the sons of Wang Zhicheng, and inherited the skills from their father. They spent their lives practicing and perfecting those skills, and from oral tradition we hear that they were also working as merchants at some point, and spent a lot of time in Dengfeng and in the Shaolin temple. What they practiced and taught retained the original simple but efficient flavor of Ji Long's teachings.
________________________________________

Wang Zhi Cheng 王志诚（1680-?）
Wang Zhicheng, one of Zheng Wukui's disciples, was from Xin'an County, Henan Province (He may have also been known as Henan Fu Li). He was a famous Martial Arts master during the Qianlong Dynasty. According to the manuscripts, he was taught by Zheng WuKui. He then wrote down everything he learned from him. Hu Zhengsheng has inherited several of his (original) writings, which summarize the theory of Xinyiba and Liuhequan.
According to some researchers, he is the one who taught Ma Xueli and Li Chunchen (which also makes more sense chronologically than the common lineage trees). Ma and later Dai Longbang further developed the style, and invented ten forms, Four Movements, etc. But prior to them, there were no Taolu / collections of movements.They created Xinyi Liu He Quan. Wang’s best and closest students were his two sons, who were also the ones who brought their knowledge once more into the Shaolin Temple.
________________________________________

Zheng Wu Kui 郑武奎（1660-? ）
Zheng Wukui (also known as Nan Shan Zheng), one of Ji Long's disciples, taught Martial Arts during Qianlong Dynasty, and was from Dengfeng County, Henan Province. He was recorded in the Nanshan Zheng Shi (Lit. "South of Mt. Song" - signifying Dengfeng - "Zheng family records") as well as in the documents written by his disciple Wang Zhicheng and various historical documents. Zheng being from Dengfeng, it is most likely that the first contact between Shaolin Temple and Xinyiba was through him.

Zhoukou XYLHQ does not have "10 animals" this is something more likely, Lu Song Gao changed/

DZQ