Pushing Hands discussion

[Kaitain]

Based on the pushing hands clip of Mario from the video section. It'd be interesting to get a chat going about pushing hands and where it sits in the process of learning combative ability. It's also something of a riposte to the "your internal is fake" thread.

I think what the clip illustrates very well is the fallacy of patty-cake pushing hands being effective as a combative method, rather than merely a training method to develop sensitivity. One does not preclude the other - grappling with a BJJ guy rapidly teaches you that they are very sensitive, but that that sensitivity has been learned within a properly developed framework so they can actually use it when someone is trying to throw them on the floor or rip their arm off. I've pushed hands with people who were better than me at the soft and slow fixed step pushing hands - but as soon as stepping came into it, or the rules opened to include striking/throwing, they went to pieces.

I got knocked out by one of my seniors about 8 years ago - I had confidently said that my response to his hook would be to yield as I met it and use the energy to power my own return strike (I'd read a few too many taiji books). I was very confident about this. He then said "show me", and proceeded to knock me out through the pad I was holding on the "yielding" arm.

Many taiji people need to learn that the "high-level" skills come after you can do the "low-level" version. There are no shortcuts. What taiji is good at is keeping your eye on the desired goal - i.e. an explicit explanation of the skills you are aiming for. Unfortunately where it often fails is in being explicit about what you're supposed to do in the intervening period until you get to those skills. By dismissing the more obvious skills as "low-level", people miss out a lot of the training that is actually going to get them to be able to use the advanced skills in a combative setting.

If you aren't able to defend yourself against basic one step attacks delivered at full power (let alone sparring), then your training is deficient.
If you can't strike hard enough to stop someone in their tracks, then your training is deficient.
If you can't deal with someone who is forcefully trying to grapple you to the floor, then your training is deficient.

Taijiquan is an internal martial art, if you can't fight with it then you're not doing the martial part.

Sticking your head up your arse is not internal.

[johnwang]

Allow me to share my Zimen style training experience. I believe the Zimen style has the faster hand strike (even faster than the PM system) among all CMA system. One day I sparred with a Karate guy and I touch my fingers on his chest so many times and he couldn't even block it. I was so pround at my striking speed until one day my Karate friend asked me, "John! Can I ask you a stupid question?" His question was, "Why did you keep touching your finger tips at my chest?"

After that day, my attitude toward CMA training had been sweached 180 degree and I will never go back.

[Ian]

Too many people know in their heads instead of their bodies.

One big taichee mistake - putting your hands up and waiting for a bridge to *magically* happen. NO! This is not a PH competition! You don't wait for your opponent to come to you! If you put your hands up I will gunting those bitches and kick you in the grouch!

[Kaitain]

John - that's brilliant

Ian - lay off my grouch

[bruce]

i think the practice of "no rules" or "no fixed pattern" push hands is very important.
a few things i think push hands should be and should include:
fast
slow
strong
soft
practice with any many people as you can and lots of people from different styles
any type of strike such as with any part of the arms, head but, shoulder strike etc.
any type of kick (attack with any part of your legs
cooperative training
uncooperative training
standing grappling
throwing and following up
sweeping and following up
entering/making contact
finishing/ending move
not trying to just push the other person off balance a little but understanding how to push them into the ground or an object or if you do just push them away understand it is now time to run or attack again.
sticking
not sticking (you do not always have to keep contact with your training partner)
thrusting strikes
snapping strikes
head locks
any type of joint lock "chin na"
continuos attack and defense until one submits even if that means going to the ground
controlled specific drills such as only working on pushing or only working on pulling
one hand sensitivity drills

these are just a "few" things that are part of my push hands practice and i think more people should use ideas like these.

of coarse 8 energies 5 directions blah blah blah

[I-mon]

i agree!

[Bao]

Many taiji people need to learn that the "high-level" skills come after you can do the "low-level" version. There are no shortcuts.

agreed.

With my words: Whatever high level you reach, everything is still about how well you can handle basics.

I believe the Zimen style has the faster hand strike (even faster than the PM system) among all CMA system.

What make Zimen style that fast? Training? mechanics?

[Walk the Torque]

I think what happens is a lot of people get stuck at the fixed step push hands level and don't progress to moving step, da lu, form applications, two man form, san shou. They don't increase their strength from weapons training, and they don't fight against guys from other styles.

Times will change

[jkuo]

Many taiji people need to learn that the "high-level" skills come after you can do the "low-level" version. There are no shortcuts. What taiji is good at is keeping your eye on the desired goal - i.e. an explicit explanation of the skills you are aiming for. Unfortunately where it often fails is in being explicit about what you're supposed to do in the intervening period until you get to those skills.

Agreed, but maybe this is not completely a failing of taiji. Weren't a lot of former "taiji" masters trained in other arts? I may be completely off in my assessment, but [typical] taiji training doesn't seem to cultivate a whole lot combat ability unless you're already well grounded in fighting basics. It seems to me that you have to cross train in other arts (or at least interact with practitioners of other styles) if you truly want to understand taiji in its full martial context.

One big taichee mistake - putting your hands up and waiting for a bridge to *magically* happen. NO! This is not a PH competition! You don't wait for your opponent to come to you! If you put your hands up I will gunting those bitches and kick you in the grouch!

I think it's even worse when some people intentionally drop their hands during PH (and then proceed to smugly tell you you're doing something wrong when you can't push them). Bridging correctly is important, but another big deficiency IME has been people not knowing how to disengage safely. It's just not a good idea to let go of contact if your opponent can freely strike in.

[flaigle_7]

One of the problems i found with my push hands practice is that it presupposed a bridge had already been created. I was working primarily in a situation where both parties allowed a bridge to be formed in a manner that gave neither an advantage and then we would proceed from there. the skills i was gaining were easily nullified when the context changed. The practice was very one dimensional. I no longer practice this way (other than in limited circumstances). What happens when you miss the bridge with your hands and you need to bridge with your body, or leg, etc.? I prefer PH practice without contact initially established and using full-body. And like any good push hands practice, i use it as a learning tool, rather than a competitive exchange.

[johnwang]

What make Zimen style that fast? Training? mechanics?

The Zimen style has a training called 通三關Tong San Guan - break through 3 joints (shoulder, elbow, and wrist joints so your Chi can past through) that can make your body extream soft (softer than Taiji guy's body) . Since their main weapon is the finger tips striking (death touch), a soft body will have advantage.

[Mut]

as with everythiong... time and place... PHs is a part of fighting skill development, no the whole of it....

[qiphlow]

this conversation gives me deja vu.