Starting Xingyi

[everything]

Daily decrease not daily increase according to BL.

Non action according to the Tao.

XingYi Quan looks satisfyingly “simple”.

Eight energies five steps. Tai chi might be “simple” as well.

Eight mother palms. Maybe BGZ is “simple”.

[Appledog]

Daily decrease not daily increase according to BL.

Non action according to the Tao.

XingYi Quan looks satisfyingly “simple”.

Eight energies five steps. Tai chi might be “simple” as well.

Eight mother palms. Maybe BGZ is “simple”.

That's out of context here. It's a category error. The point is not the number of theories in the art or the number of energies in it, but extraneous or interdependent material that could be trimmed. The creation of short forms of Tai Chi demonstrate a perceived need to cut things down a little to make it easier for beginners to get involved. Traditionally, this is how all martial arts are taught. So it would almost seem throwing someone into the middle of one long and complex form which contains the entire teaching of an art is actually quite unrealistic. In 1919 Li Jianqiu wrote,

"I fear that the Xingyi boxing art will end up gradually progressing toward the flowery and follow in the footsteps of these frauds. When students cannot be induced to work at the fundamentals and discover what is there, these kinds of editings end up getting made. Those who have added to the Continuous Boxing set are trying to get the students to practice more in their spare time by making adjustments to the training of how the five elements transition to each other [and thereby supposedly making it more interesting]. From this we can understand how boxing arts alter."

There's a certain value in comparing a system like Xingyiquan, which is relatively simpler and easier than an art like Taijiquan, and seeing what the similarities and differences are. I think I am going to experiment more with training one art in a manner like the other. This is certainly suggested by both arts. Guo Yunshen wrote that a higher level there must be no breaks or stops in transition between postures; it is also common, as I mentioned, for TaiChi practitioners to practice single techniques in a line -- for example brush knee and twist step several times in a row. I recall a story of how bagua postures were sometimes taught in a straight line for drilling purposes (as a result of influence from xingyiquan).

Have you ever heard of this kind of training idea? Do you think that drilling single techniques is "bad for tai chi"? I wonder.

[everything]

Yes have heard several times of people doing that.

Step forward parry punch seems like beng for example.

But tai chi is based on being able to continuously change and follow. So doing a long form seems in part meant to bolster that.

Superficially (ignoring the internal engine) the big three seem complementary. There are different angles of attack and different approaches. Tending to go forward. Tending to change the angle. Tending to follow. Etc.

If a person had unlimited time, it would be amazing to learn all three. Most people don’t do the internal requirement, though, so hollow endless techniques may still not be good. Zhan zhuang or circle walking is always the answer.

[robert]

There's a certain value in comparing a system like Xingyiquan, which is relatively simpler and easier than an art like Taijiquan, and seeing what the similarities and differences are.

The training methods are different, but there are also a lot of similarities. Chen Changxing's top ten list and Yue Fei's ten essentials are basically the same document.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2019/09/01/an-introduction-to-chen-style-taiji/

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2013/02/23/the-xingyi-manual-of-li-jianqiu/

Taiji has peng, lu, ji, and an and they are trained in a circle. Xingyi has rise, drill, fall, and overturn and they are trained in a circle.

I think I am going to experiment more with training one art in a manner like the other. This is certainly suggested by both arts. Guo Yunshen wrote that a higher level there must be no breaks or stops in transition between postures; it is also common, as I mentioned, for TaiChi practitioners to practice single techniques in a line -- for example brush knee and twist step several times in a row. I recall a story of how bagua postures were sometimes taught in a straight line for drilling purposes (as a result of influence from xingyiquan).

Have you ever heard of this kind of training idea? Do you think that drilling single techniques is "bad for tai chi"? I wonder.

Chen Weiming discusses single posture training in Yang taijiquan in Answering Questions about Taijiquan Including Single Posture Practice Methods.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2012/10/27/answering-questions-about-taiji-taiji-da-wen/

Today some people teach Chen taiji starting with standing and silk reeling exercises. SREs are basically single postures. This is the way I learned Chen taiji.

When I was first learning jin I did a hundred reps a day of raise hands. I did that for years and still do it occasionally. I do some taiji postures as line drills or two or three postures repeated over and over.

When I was training Liang Zhenpu bagua I occasionally trained Gao style line drills.

[GrahamB]

"Chen Changxing's top ten list and Yue Fei's ten essentials are basically the same document."

That's because it is the same document. Probably because a CZP needed to publish a book to put Chen style on the map, or they needed to boost the credential of CCX, they co-opted the old Xing Yi manual and put CCX's name on it. Not their finest hour. I don't think it proves any connection between Xing Yi and Tai Chi other than plagiarism.

[robert]

Regarding training single postures in taiji I like the story of Wang Maozha. It is said he trained Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg for the first three years of his training.

It is said that 王茂斋 Wang Mao Zhai (1862 - 1940), who was already a highly skilled martial artist in Beijing, pursued Quan You for three years in an effort to learn Tai Ji Quan. During this time, he reportedly learned only one posture from Quan You, the Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg. Impressed by his sincerity and perseverance, Quan You then taught him the rest of the Wu style of Tai Ji Quan. After twenty years practice, Wang Mao Zhai has achieved high skill in the art, and taught many dedicated martical artists in Beijing. At that time, 南吴北王 "Southern Wu (Jian Quan) and Northern Wang (Mao Zhai)" - "Nan Wu Bei Wang", 南吴北王 in Chinese。北平太庙太极拳协会 Beijing Tai Ji Quan Association was established in 1928 - a home of martial artists! In late 1920's and 1930's, 40's, Wang Mao Zhai and Wu Jian Quan were the two most influenced Masters who specialized in Tai Ji Quan art in China.

https://www.taichinyc.net/history-of-wu-style-tai-chi.html

[Quigga]

Hey Robert, thanks for reminding me of the usual translation of Ming, An, Hua Haven't forgotten, I'm just working some problems out.

Some things off my chest:

Don't forget the health benefits. Regulate the amount of tapping into reserves. Sometimes, for example, the energy can get very strong - keeping me up the whole night like yesterday. Not ceasing to practice is quite difficult then, also possible risk of prematurely running out of Jing?

It sucks when you run into the young man's trap of wanting to show off or prove your worth. May even seem like there's no point to practice besides having fun (when is fun a bad thing? Sometimes...) when you can't do so. It's said even in conflict one can contain peace within. Having peace all around you and inner conflicts is it's own special kind of hell.

IMO training single moves is far, far more efficient than forms. You need more know how - what moves work what and be honest with yourself, that's difficult. One can work on specifics in a concentrated manner, whereas I felt the forms were just for show and money (speaking of Tai Chi).

[origami_itto]

IMO training single moves is far, far more efficient than forms. You need more know how - what moves work what and be honest with yourself, that's difficult. One can work on specifics in a concentrated manner, whereas I felt the forms were just for show and money (speaking of Tai Chi).

Single movement drills are great. They help refine and correct and strengthen those specific movements and I think they're an integral part of any worthwhile taijiquan curriculum.

The purpose of the long form isn't so much to refine and correct those details. Sure you should ALWAYS be working on refining and correcting the details, but generally you get a lot more out of that with the focused single movement drills.

There's a variety of ways to play the forms, and a variety of forms, each variable there can mean you're working on something a little bit different, so it's hard to speak correctly and broadly.

Generally, when I'm playing a form, I'm working on flow with the three internal harmonies, keeping the qi in circulation throughout the changing movements, and seeking a deeper meditative state. That's less effective in shorter single movement drills. Some can be done in a flowing manner to get a smaller piece of what I'm talking about but nothing really replicates maintaining this through the changing positions for the duration of a properly played taijiquan form.

Xingyi is great, love it, but my experience with it didn't expose me to any part of the curriculum that really addressed the same specific aspects in the same way.

[robert]

Single movement drills are great. They help refine and correct and strengthen those specific movements and I think they're an integral part of any worthwhile taijiquan curriculum.

The purpose of the long form isn't so much to refine and correct those details. Sure you should ALWAYS be working on refining and correcting the details, but generally you get a lot more out of that with the focused single movement drills.

I agree. HJS in his book Chen Style Taijiaquan Practical Method writes that Chen Fake did not teach a class, but taught each student individually. To a large extent this is learning individual postures that wind up in a long form. Traditionally taijiquan was handed down in a family so it's likely this is the way it was taught.

My method was to observe before practicing. The thirty-odd classmates were all from the Beijing Telegraph Bureau and I was the only student who did not work. At the beginning, it was courtesy on my part to let my “brothers” learn first so that they could go to work afterward. I was always the last one to receive my lesson. After a few days of watching, I felt more familiar with the moves. When I was learning, I gained a clearer idea of the movements, so my moves were more at ease. The way my master taught also gave me opportunities to watch. No matter how many people were present, he always taught them one by one. For example, if there were twenty people and he demonstrated five times to each student, by the end, I would be able to watch him demonstrate one hundred times. This way, I had a good idea in my mind first. The learning naturally became easier. Several days later, I started watching each movement sequentially. I would watch the hands, the stances, eye directions, body coordination and timing. I roughly remembered the whole body coordination, timing and directions. At this point, I did not practice the whole routine much (two routines a day) but I practiced single movements a lot.

The method continued as I would ask my master for demonstrations of each movement I learned. My master was never reluctant to show me. If there is one move that I performed which did not resemble my master’s, I would practice it hundreds of times in order to get it just right. Therefore, I was taught in this manner from 1930 to 1944, close to fifteen years. From that time it was thirteen years until the second time I went to see my master which was in 1956. Every movement of my master and even his facial expressions with each movement was always vivid in my mind’s eye. I said to a Shandong Television reporter, “I was weak and lazy with the routine practice, but my mind was not lazy. Until today, I can remember everything as if new.”

[everything]

there is also holding individual postures as zhan zhuang for internal development. this is what I was told to do.

my mom does golden rooster as a single move just to work on her balance as an older adult. she doesn't care about any "MA application". she cares about having balance and mobility and reducing falling risk. far more important for "self defense" in her every day life. and statistically for most seniors' lives.

[Quigga]

In the end it's a matter of personal preference

I see forms like the Sun Salutation in Hatha Yoga. Just a basic warm up that's supposed to cover all of the body's needs.

[origami_itto]

In the end it's a matter of personal preference

I see forms like the Sun Salutation in Hatha Yoga. Just a basic warm up that's supposed to cover all of the body's needs.

If that's how you use them that's perfectly fine. I just find there's a lot more meat for me to chew on in the practice beyond that.

[Quigga]

Like this video. It's at least 10 years old, maybe by now he has a different understanding.

(Yes I post a lot lately, but I also can't imagine doing something more fun )