Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

[Appledog]

After a few years of examining Chinese Martial Arts in general, it has occurred to me that in many ways, the 'big three' internal styles are often trained according to a similar schedule. I.E. there is some amount of standing and neigong development, some amount of forms and techniques, some amount of sensitivity training, and so on. But the big three are perhaps less related to themselves as they are to other arts. In fact all of the big three famous masters were dependent on learning outside arts in their youth, there isn't a single example otherwise -- except in laboratory conditions (ex. wu and yang family transmissions). It's even this way for LHBF and other arts which I have seen.

One of the fascinating differences to me about the way Tai Chi (and other internal arts, but Tai chi in particular) is constructed is that it the main teaching is all in one long form versus a gradual advancement between forms. We must remember that Chen Changxing or some close relative of him purposefully combined (seven) sets of boxing into one (two) long forms. It is also not unique to have such a thing; it exists in tai chi preying mantis, it exists in tongbeiquan, and probably in other arts. I would like to imagine that the rationale for it is merely to try and copy Tai Chi, but we will examine that later.

So the question is, why did Chen Changxing combine the sets into one (two) sets? And if this is what he did, how did he do it? One observation is that the chen family also trained multiple arts. And thus the consolidation by Chen Changxing may have been to provide the proper mix of harder forms and later, softer forms, that would remove the chance and random nature of having people randomly learn arts and if lucky get the skill later in life. I.E. instead of allowing things to happen by chance, to consolidate that process. Which means there's nothing wrong with the historical trend of masters learning harder arts in their youth and more advanced (softer?) arts in their old age, but thats rather how it was always supposed to be. And he consolidated that idea into one general practice to make the principle easier to teach and learn.

Old Chen First Form
First we need to go back to Chen style. We need to be as close as possible to the original from Chen village. As soon as we do this we see a few interesting patterns. One, is the natural section-ability of the form. Throughout the rest of the article I used the idea that there is a signature move which appears in variations and is based on silk reeling (wave hands like clouds; beast head pose, turn body and lean with body strike the groin; green dragon turns out of water, etc) and a sectional closing movement which contains a stomp. If we start by taking Buddha Warrior Attendant pounds mortar, then there is an initial jibengong section which consists entirely of silk reeling, closing with the fist-stomp movement -- i.e. this section closes with the exact same movement that closes the long form. Or possibly the first section will also include lazily arrange clothes and terminate before white crane spreads wings (which would be the signature move of the second form).

Some points to consider -- In many styles of Tai Chi and other martial arts, movements are added to the beginning of the form which would act as a signature for the instructor or the school. In many tai chi forms I have seen, the opening move is done in a manner to demonstrate the principle of silk reeling. There is raise hands in one of its various forms, some sort of silk reeling motions, and the end of the first short form. It is quite possible that in an earlier shorter form, there were merely a number of silk reeling moves with combined steps. Movements such as carry the basket from 18 luohan could be an application for single arm negative silk reeling, monk opens the door could be double hand outward reeling, and so forth. I'm doing this to point out that you could create a first form based on any standard shaolin or other set, or from scratch, and the purpose would be merely to demonstrate silk reeling from a standing position. the circling of the foot and the execution of buddha pounds mortar is not really considered as part of the form in this case but merely the closing of it; then let us get back to a proto version of this which does not require the step; as seen in some wushu forms (for comparison). It would then be a version of raise hands inwhich half the body rises; this seems a natural development from raise hands, and the weight shifting from a standing position that would be key in such a form.

Thus the first form may have looked something like wing chun in that you are standing still and doing a variety of movements, but not angular and quick. If you have been taught standing versions of movements like brush knee and twist step, or wave hands like clouds, or pi quan, then you know the kind of movements I am talking about. However, as I do not see any precedent for standing still, and that I see stancework as fundamental, I think that the first section will include all the way until the second buddha's warrior attendant move. The white crane spreads wings move would then be the signature move for the start of the second form.

It is also likely that each individual form was longer than what I list here and may have included additional movements that chen changxing did not include in his revision. The only way to know that would be to try and find the original forms (of da hong quan, etc).

Form one naturally includes the fundamentals of what makes tai chi "tai chi": peng, lu, ju, an. As for the four corners, single whip appears to be a staple move and contains kao. Thus the principle of folding; that kao, zhou, and cai are variants and lie (split) is found in ex. white crane, critical moment (middle winding) etc. So then the eight energies are already introduced in the first form, and expanded on in the second. We then see a principle of variations on a theme throughout the first five sections/forms, as I'll attempt to illustrate below.

[Appledog]

"Old Chen" Third Form
Now we encounter the first difficulty with using buddha's warrior attendant as a sectioning device; there isn't another one for quite some time.

Chenstyletaijiquan.net has a different way of sectioning the forms. Let us deeply consider now, before and after gao tan ma (high pat on horse). Previously we suddenly return to six sealing, four closing, and single whip before the introduction of wave hands like clouds. The inclusion of this set of movements is unusual and suggests segmentation. After this, we see a series of kicks.

Let us then make a separation here. But precisely where is strange. Let us consider the transition of hidden hand punch for a clue. Initially we see the right hand move back and up and the left hand under, then a circle to the left and right before executing buddha's warrior attendant and closing the first main section of the form. However, after hidden hand punch in this section (section 2) the fists are rolled back and carried out in the manner of transition between green dragon and push with both hands (leading into fist under elbow and whirl arms on both sides). This roll inwards is reminiscient of the entry into small catch and hit.

So it seems that what may have actually occurred is that the section is somewhere between hidden hand punch (which would then lead into a close of the 'second form' by transitioning into buddha's warrior attendant) and that what Chen Changxing did is smooth the transition by altering an earlier move (hidden hand punch #2) to move into six sealing/wave hands like clouds. I speculate then that wave hands like clouds does not really belong in this section. I believe it would have either been in the third section (or later) because of the transition into arrange legs to split (the kick). Thus, this could be a proto second form.

"Old Chen" fourth form
Until now, the theory is that Chen Changxing merely concatenated the forms. It is highly unlikely he invented entirely new sequences of moves. And the prevalence of a lot of kicks in this third section would seem to indicate that there were a lot of kicks in the third form.

Towards the end of this section is the last of the great leaping and kicking movements; for many the highlight of the form; double stomp and jade maiden works shuttles. Looking carefully, these movements are surrounded by the standard fare; six sealing four closing, single whip, and then again (!!) followed immediately by a motion that is energentically similar to buddha's warrior attendant: arrange legs to split followed by the first golden rooster + stomp is patternistically extremely familiar by now. If all of these highly unusual things did not clue you in well enough, let us point on that this is clearly the end of something, as we are now about to enter the review section.

Old Chen Fifth Form
If we skip the review section as extraneous, I view here cross lotus kick as a misplaced move. This move should somehow belong in the previous form. If it was not placed here any transition could get us forward; such as instead of going into high pat on horse, close in and stand on the left leg and heel kick out to the right, then you can 'flip' into punch to the groin and white ape presents fruit. As for cannon fists to the head, this may in fact belong to a hypothetical fifth form. This move, along with white ape presents fruit, hold the root, etc. feels somewhat out of context here considering sections.

What about the sixth and seventh forms? I hypothesize these were mainly put into the second routine and may represent a related but different school of boxing. It's said that in the first road the body leads the hands and in the second the hands lead the body. Also because of the general aggressive posture vs. the first form, which is mainly a retaliatory form; the second form here includes attack moves like chain punching and foot sweeps, as well as different kinds of stepping.

Final Speculations
Why was the practice changed by Chen Changxing?

The answer seems obvious from how we discuss first and second road. What happened is that as the Chen family practiced several arts in conjunction with each other, also was passed down the ratio in which to perform these sets of boxing in order to get an efficient result over a long period of time. Because people in the village would practice the same thing their whole life, it was seen that 'in the end', 'how things really work' is that people will end up following along, or at best have different skill levels on the same forms, even beginners forms. So 'by the way' things were practiced this way anwyays and what Chen Changxing did was glue the forms together and cause the most important foundational moves to be repeated through the form. Also to illustrate the free nature of the form that any move could transition into any other. This must have been done almost without thinking, and based on a great experience practising and teaching the separate arts; but it must have felt natural and practical to do so at the time.

I suspect he didn't really do very much work to glue them together. Then it would actually make more mental sense to consider the long form as one unit of practice; taking about five or ten minutes.

There's no reason to doubt that the original forms were very short. Most of these kinds of forms are relatively short. They may have even been collections of repeated moves, like in Xingyi, with no set pattern between them, and joined over time as a matter of practical practice.

I also speculate that the consolidation was done to highlight a similar goal among all the forms; the motion of the large circle points towards the central pivot; this will allow one to progress in skill from large circle to small circle to neigong (internal) circle. Thus, only moves from the original form that conformed to this idea would have been included in the first form; remaining moves (advanced, and non retaliatory moves) would have been placed into er lu because they are a different class of moves. Yet even then I suspect that a watchful eye was kept to retain the 'one principle' or at least, some version of it which would then be added to, modified or improved by additional shenfa/theories taught in the second form.

And thus, we see Tai Chi is exactly like all other Chinese martial arts; the core of which seems to be one or more simple body motion techniques, a bunch of applications based on them, getting progressively more complex and involved the more forms you learn, then sparring and sensitivity exercises to prepare you for fighting. And weapons work which somehow finds its way back into the form (wrist turning, etc).

Any comments would be welcome.

[Appledog]

Hypothetical forms:

Signature Move of Style
1. Preparatory Stance or Starting Form (qĭ shì, yù bèi shì) 起势(起勢) or 预备式 -- wave hands like clouds
2. Strong Man Pounds the Mortar (jīn gāng dǎo duì) (1) 金刚捣碓 (金剛搗碓) -- closing

Hypothetical Original First Form
***opening, wave hands like clouds (see above)
3. Holding Coat at the Waist (lǎn zhā yī) (2) 揽扎衣(攬紮衣)
4. Six Sealing and Four Closing (liù fēng sì bì) 六封四闭 (六封四閉)
5. Single Whip (dān biān) (3) 单鞭(單鞭)
6. Strong Man Pounds the Mortar (jīn gāng dǎo duì) 金刚捣碓 (金剛搗碓)

Hypothetical Original Second Form
*opening
*signature move 7. White Goose Spreads Wings (bái é liàng chì) (4) 白鹅亮翅
8. Inclined or Diagonal Posture with Twisted Steps (xié xíng ào bù) 斜行拗步
9. First receive (chū shōu) (5) 初收
10. Forward Blocking with Twisted Steps (qián dăng ào bù) (6) 前挡拗步
11. Inclined or Diagonal Posture with Twisted Steps (xié xíng ào bù) (7) 斜行拗步
12. Receive again (zài shōu) 再收
13. Forward Blocking with Twisted Steps (qián dăng ào bù) 前挡拗步
14. Hidden Punch (yǎn shǒu gōng quán) (8) 掩手肱拳
15. Strong Man Pounds the Mortar (jīn gāng dǎo duì) 金刚捣碓 (金剛搗碓)

Hypothetical Original third Form
***Raise Hands
**Signature Move (wave hands -- thats what it looks like doesn't it)
16. Leaning Body Punch (piě shēn quán) (1) 撇身拳
17. Pressing with the back (bèi zhé kào) (2) 背折靠
18. Green Dragon Emerges from Water (qīng lóng chū shuǐ) (3) 青龙出水(青龍出水)
19. Push with Both Hands (shuāng tuī shŏu) (4) 双推手
20. Three Palm Exchanges (sān huàn zhǎng) 三换掌
21. Elbow Meets Fist (zhǒu dī quán) (5) 肘低拳
22. Stepping Backwards with Turning Arms (dào juǎn gōng) 倒巻肱
23. Give Way to Press Elbow (tuì bù yā zhǒu) 退步压肘
24. Critical moment (zhōng pán) (6) 中盘
25. White Goose Spreads Wings (bái é liàng chì) 白鹅亮翅
26. Inclined or Diagonal Posture with Twisted Steps (xié xíng ào bù) 斜行拗步
27. Turn Back Quickly (shǎn tōng bèi) (7) 闪通背
28. Hidden Punch (yǎn shǒu gōng quán) 掩手肱拳
***buddha's warrior attendant pounds mortar
**closing


Hypothertical Original fourth form
*** Opening
31. Moving or Waving Hands (yùn shŏu) (8) 运手 ***Signature Move(!!)
32. Pat Horse on High Back (gāo tàn mǎ) (9) 高探马
33. Right Sweeping Kick (yòu cā jiǎo) (1) 右擦脚
34. Left Sweeping Kick (zuǒ cā jiǎo) (1) 左擦脚
35. Heel Kick (dēng yì gēn) (2) 蹬一根
36. Forward Blocking with Twisted Steps (qián dăng ào bù) (3) 前挡拗步
37. Punch towards the Ground (jī dì chuí) (4) 击地锤 (擊地錘)
38. Turn back for Double Jump Kicks (fān shēn èr qĭ jiăo) (5) 翻身二起脚
39. Beast Head Pose (shòu tóu shì) (6) 兽头式
40. Tornado Kick (xuán fēng jiǎo) (7) 旋风脚 === 72. Cross Lotus Kick (shí zì bǎi lián) (1) 十字摆莲
***here insert 80. Turn Back and Wave Double Lotus Kick (zhuǎn shēn shuāng bái lián) 转身双白莲
41. Heel Kick (dēng yì gēn) (2) 蹬一根
42. Hidden Punch (yǎn shǒu gōng quán) 掩手肱拳
43. Small Grasping and Hitting (xiǎo qín dǎ) (1) 小擒打
44. Push Mountain from the Head (bào tóu tuī shān) (2) 抱头推山
45. Three Palm Exchanges (sān huàn zhǎng) 三换掌
46. Six Sealing and Four Closing (liù fēng sì bì) 六封四闭
47. Single Whip (dān biān) 单鞭
48. Protect the Front (qián zhāo) (3) 前招
49. Protect the Back (hòu zhāo) (3) 后招
50. Part the Wild Horse’s Mane (yě mǎ fēn zōng) (4) 野马分鬃
51. Six Sealing and Four Closing (liù fēng sì bì) (5) 六封四闭
52. Single Whip (dān biān) 单鞭
53. Double earth-shaking stomps (shuāng zhèn jiǎo) (1) 双震脚
54. Jade Maiden Shuttles back and forth (yù nǚ chuān suō) 玉女穿梭
** Closing

Hypothetical Fifth Form
** opening
** some variant of signature move ex. hidden body punch, rotate body and strike, green dragon, wave hands like clouds, etc.
71. Pat Horse on High Back (gāo tàn mǎ) 高探马
72. Cross Lotus Kick (shí zì bǎi lián) (1) 十字摆莲 ** see above
(Note, if we omit 71 and 72, #73 is energetically similar to the signature move).
73. Punch to the Groin (zhǐ dāng chuí) (2) 指裆锤
74. White Ape Presents Fruit (bái yuan xiàn guǒ or yuan hóu tàn guǒ) (3) 白猿献果 or 猿猴探果
75. Six Sealing and Four Closing (liù fēng sì bì) (4) 六封四闭
76. Single Whip (dān biān) 单鞭
77. Earthworm burrowing under the mud (què dì lóng) (5) 雀地龙
78. Step Forward into Seven Stars Pose (shàng bù qī xīng) (6) 上步七星
79. Step Back to wrap with forearm (tuì bù kuà hǔ) (7) 退步跨虎
80. Turn Back and Wave Double Lotus Kick (zhuǎn shēn shuāng bái lián) 转身双白莲
81. Cannon Fists to the Head (dāng tóu pào) 当头炮
82. Strong Man Pounds the Mortar (jīn gāng dǎo duì) 金刚捣碓
83. Close (shōu shì) 收势


Disclaimer: I made this whole thing up. This is based on the idea that Chen Changxing didn't do a lot of work when combining the forms and likely did it for the practical reason of 'thats how people eneded up practising more or less anyways' so 'lets make a couple of tweaks to put this in an easier to comprehend package'.

The next leg of my research will be to look up the original forms; I think Salvatore Canzonieri did some research into the connections between shaolin and tongbei that I could look up, and try and see if any of the sequences of moves are similar.

[everything]

The “schedule” probably depends on if we “try”. The harder you “try”, the more you will fail. “Non action” is the way.

That’s why Guo said to stand, Dong said to circle walk. Below is what Yang Chengfu said on the opening posture. Very similar.

It is difficult to follow because people will not pay heed. I am at square 0.000001, and it finally starts to make some smal amount of sense. If you skip this square, it will not make sense.

Moving “externally” is natural. Picking up a cup. Kicking a ball. Learning to zhan zhuang is very unnatural. That’s why so many cannot do it. It is difficult to be Yin and “not do”.

Explanation:
This is Taiji Boxing’s opening posture, the shape you assume in preparation for movement. While standing stably, the head should be held erect, drawn in and pressed up, the gaze straight ahead. The chest is slightly hollowed and the back pulled up. There must be no leaning forward or back. The shoulders sink, the elbows slightly sit, and the hands hang with fingers forward and palms down. The waist and hips loosen, and the feet are shoulder width apart. Spirit is now consolidated within and energy is sinking to the elixir field. Let it happen naturally, for you cannot make it happen. I preserve my stillness to await the opponent’s movement. However, people typically are liable to neglect this posture, ignorant in particular that regardless of whatever technique is being practiced or applied, none of them can be disassociated from this one. I hope the reader or student will give it first priority and pay attention to it.

[Appledog]

The “schedule” probably depends on if we “try”. The harder you “try”, the more you will fail. “Non action” is the way.

That’s why Guo said to stand, Dong said to circle walk. Below is what Yang Chengfu said on the opening posture. Very similar.

It is difficult to follow because people will not pay heed. I am at square 0.000001, and it finally starts to make some smal amount of sense. If you skip this square, it will not make sense.

Moving “externally” is natural. Picking up a cup. Kicking a ball. Learning to zhan zhuang is very unnatural. That’s why so many cannot do it. It is difficult to be Yin and “not do”.

I'm not sure entirely what you mean. First of all, if non action is the way, then why bother 'trying' to do zhan zhuang? This form of non-action is actually a great misunderstanding that arises out of not having the same spiritual and philosophical background as hundreds of years ago in China. Today we just think differently. The difference is that today in order to concentrate we 'think really hard' about something; in the past what would be done instead is to remove extraneous thoughts. But the central action of the process is the related intent, the desire, the action itself is really intended to be done, and physically completed. What is let go of are useless things and not everything. And furthermore this is a skill which can be learned, so the idea that one shouldn't try and non action is the 'way' is not really true. It is not the way. The way is to do what you want to do, and non action is the tool by which it is accomplished.

Secondly, zhan zhuang was not historically a method used in chen village, it was introduced in the 80s by Feng Zhi Qiang. The idea of standing meditation is prevalent in many arts, so it seems unusual to assume it was never done, but it apparently was not a focus of what was taught by chen zhaopi or chen fa ke and doesn't seem to be a foundational training method anywhere else. IIRC it's not discussed in Chen Xin's book either. Based on my experience it is not a required foundational exercise of tai chi... YMMV of course.

Anyways wrt pile standing, if it was a component of the original arts it may have been preserved in ancilliary exercises or jibengong, or beginner's training. But it seems that it was not considered important enough to include in the main body of the practice of the art. The biographies of past masters only include them practising the form many times a day, not standing in one place sweating. That's more like the kind of story you will hear from other arts.

[Bao]

We must remember that Chen Changxing or some close relative of him purposefully combined (seven) sets of boxing into one (two) long forms.

....

So the question is, why did Chen Changxing combine the sets into one (two) sets?

Did he? / they?

I've seen this theory before but haven't find any sources or material to back it up. So on what do you base this assumption?

[windwalker]

The “schedule” probably depends on if we “try”. The harder you “try”, the more you will fail. “Non action” is the way.

That’s why Guo said to stand, Dong said to circle walk. Below is what Yang Chengfu said on the opening posture. Very similar.

It is difficult to follow because people will not pay heed. I am at square 0.000001, and it finally starts to make some smal amount of sense. If you skip this square, it will not make sense.

Moving “externally” is natural. Picking up a cup. Kicking a ball. Learning to zhan zhuang is very unnatural. That’s why so many cannot do it. It is difficult to be Yin and “not do”.

one might consider coming to an understanding that one is at "square 0.00001"

a great achievement in itself...
the beginning of true understanding

Everyone has their own reasons for practice, goals and objectives.

some commentary from

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,

https://www.facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition

(十九)隨時隨地練動夫
(Nineteen) Practice Anytime Anywhere

編者按:練太極拳功夫的方式、方能有幾種，如站樁、盤架子、練單式、揉手、大捋、練劍、練 刀、練槍，等等。對這些，汪永泉老師都進行過詳細的講授，其中有很多獨到之處。此外，他
還教了一種重要的練功方能:在日常生活中隨時隨地練功。主要是指太極拳的基礎功 ­­知己之 功。所謂隨時隨地練功，不是整天比劃太極拳的姿勢，而是在日常活動中註意使自己的身心狀 態符合太極拳的基本要求。這樣使練功的時間增加了幾倍, 使太極拳的基本要求成為自己的習慣 狀態，像是身體的一種本能。這很有利於功夫的增長。如果一個人平時經常處在與太極拳功夫 要求相背離的狀態，如心浮氣躁、精神萎靡、低頭貓腰、縮脖聳肩、凹胸駝背、氣捅心際、僵 滯、全身緊縮、自己跟 自己較勁，也許不一定很嚴重、很典型，只是一種傾向、一點毛病，但這對練功是有不利影響 的。

Editor’s Note: There are many different methods to practice Tai Chi Chuan: standing pole, empty hand forms, single posture, rubbing (pushing) hand, (sparring), sword forms, dao forms, spear forms, etc. For each of these, Wang Yongquan Laoshi has explained them in details, pointing out many unique features. Besides these, he also taught a very important practice method: practice anytime anywhere as you go through your days.

The most important foundational work in Tai Chi Chuan is
“knowing yourself.”

[yeniseri]

First of all, if non action is the way, then why bother 'trying' to do zhan zhuang? This form of non-action is actually a great misunderstanding that arises out of not having the same spiritual and philosophical background as hundreds of years ago in China. Today we just think differently. The difference is that today in order to concentrate we 'think really hard' about something; in the past what would be done instead is to remove extraneous thoughts. But the central action of the process is the related intent, the desire, the action itself is really intended to be done, and physically completed. What is let go of are useless things and not everything. And furthermore this is a skill which can be learned, so the idea that one shouldn't try and non action is the 'way' is not really true. It is not the way. The way is to do what you want to do, and non action is the tool by which it is accomplished

A gret point but per my experience, it is more the perseverance with gong, that many refuse to go through! That is the door.
In zhanzhuang, though external movement is not visible, internal milieu 'events' are going on a 'structural level', changing 'foundations, adjusting muscular "controls', rearranging the body in preparation for the next level of "dynamic movement".
SECRET: The gong of 100 days has never started at Day 1. Based on individual preparation, practice, orientation, etc (excuse my imprecise language descriptive!) its effects MAY be seen at Day 15, Day 30 and even Day 99 but most of us stop, wonder, etc at Day 30/35, etc and say to ourselves "zhanzhuang, taijizhuang, wujizhuang, zhuangfa, etc is not working so we stop" because we did not see "obvious magical crap" our mind is looking for. I read somewhere Chen Xiaowang stated that he re-created much of the jibengong (conditioning exercises) onlyu because the "original ones were lost" and that continuity of training appaered to be at odds with other Chen variations (my words) of the 1960s since may Chen family dispersed to other areas of the country!

Keep in mind that the Yang Chengfu lineage does not have/did not express this neigong element but Wang Yongquan, Wei Shuren and others of that era were able to show a skill that many could not understand and still don't. I will include myself as never experienced (training akin to the aforementioned) though I have seen others express that level and type of expression.

Here is a link to the daughter of Wei Shuren who inherited his system.Very intersting background compared to the "old ways" of expressing lineage. https://min.news/en/culture/8f342d6f034 ... b027c.html
NOTE: Master Wang Yongquan, and has obtained the traditional Yang-style Lao Liulu Neigong Taijiquan that has been secretly passed down by two generations of the Yang family. The owner of the hall is one of the inheritors of Yang-style Taijiquan, an intangible cultural heritage of Beijing.

Let go and do. Eating bitter is difficult.

[everything]

The “schedule” probably depends on if we “try”. The harder you “try”, the more you will fail. “Non action” is the way.

That’s why Guo said to stand, Dong said to circle walk. Below is what Yang Chengfu said on the opening posture. Very similar.

It is difficult to follow because people will not pay heed. I am at square 0.000001, and it finally starts to make some smal amount of sense. If you skip this square, it will not make sense.

Moving “externally” is natural. Picking up a cup. Kicking a ball. Learning to zhan zhuang is very unnatural. That’s why so many cannot do it. It is difficult to be Yin and “not do”.

one might consider coming to an understanding that one is at "square 0.00001"

a great achievement in itself...
the beginning of true understanding

Everyone has their own reasons for practice, goals and objectives.

some commentary from

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,

https://www.facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition

(十九)隨時隨地練動夫
(Nineteen) Practice Anytime Anywhere

編者按:練太極拳功夫的方式、方能有幾種，如站樁、盤架子、練單式、揉手、大捋、練劍、練 刀、練槍，等等。對這些，汪永泉老師都進行過詳細的講授，其中有很多獨到之處。此外，他
還教了一種重要的練功方能:在日常生活中隨時隨地練功。主要是指太極拳的基礎功 ­­知己之 功。所謂隨時隨地練功，不是整天比劃太極拳的姿勢，而是在日常活動中註意使自己的身心狀 態符合太極拳的基本要求。這樣使練功的時間增加了幾倍, 使太極拳的基本要求成為自己的習慣 狀態，像是身體的一種本能。這很有利於功夫的增長。如果一個人平時經常處在與太極拳功夫 要求相背離的狀態，如心浮氣躁、精神萎靡、低頭貓腰、縮脖聳肩、凹胸駝背、氣捅心際、僵 滯、全身緊縮、自己跟 自己較勁，也許不一定很嚴重、很典型，只是一種傾向、一點毛病，但這對練功是有不利影響 的。

Editor’s Note: There are many different methods to practice Tai Chi Chuan: standing pole, empty hand forms, single posture, rubbing (pushing) hand, (sparring), sword forms, dao forms, spear forms, etc. For each of these, Wang Yongquan Laoshi has explained them in details, pointing out many unique features. Besides these, he also taught a very important practice method: practice anytime anywhere as you go through your days.

The most important foundational work in Tai Chi Chuan is
“knowing yourself.”

getting to square 0.00001 happened by accident. that's the only way I can realize "non doing" really is "The Way". It feels like the beginning, indeed. As a beginner, I'd say that culture and language change. "The Way" doesn't change. Trying to intellectual analyze the history or other "meta" facets is still "too much doing". Too much yang, not enough yin. Sorry to be abstract. "If the accident happens", then the words start to make sense. The masters didn't speak in riddles; it's just hard to get out of our own way.

[windwalker]

Keep in mind that the Yang Chengfu lineage does not have/did not express this neigong element but Wang Yongquan, Wei Shuren and others of that era were able to show a skill that many could not understand and still don't.

I will include myself as never experienced (training akin to the aforementioned) though I have seen others express that level and type of expression.

Here is a link to the daughter of Wei Shuren who inherited his system.

Very intersting background compared to the "old ways" of expressing lineage. https://min.news/en/culture/8f342d6f034 ... b027c.html
NOTE: Master Wang Yongquan, and has obtained the traditional Yang-style Lao Liulu Neigong Taijiquan that has been secretly passed down by two generations of the Yang family. The owner of the hall is one of the inheritors of Yang-style Taijiquan, an intangible cultural heritage of Beijing.

Let go and do. Eating bitter is difficult.

Interesting.

My experience has been quite different

My teacher knew those mentioned, his skill reflecting what others have talked about...
For most people, its quite hard to let go of "force" some even with a teacher that can do "it"
can not reach it,,,thinking its something they can get by "understanding"

When I was there, he once mentioned some of what was written in what are referred to as the classics are not quite correct
if one follows it, they won't get it....the best way is through "correct" practice...

Of course he was talking about "practice" with those who got it...

Even practicing with those who've reached it, some never reach the point that they can really let go...

the work of many yrs....

[Bao]

Keep in mind that the Yang Chengfu lineage does not have/did not express this neigong element but Wang Yongquan, Wei Shuren and others of that era were able to show a skill that many could not understand and still don't. I will include myself as never experienced (training akin to the aforementioned) though I have seen others express that level and type of expression.

Excuse me, maybe my English is too crappy, but I have no idea what you mean. Do you mean that YCF lineage practitioners donate have the skills that Wei Shuren lineage have. Or do you mean that some kind of skill (which you don't even bother to explain) is only attainable by practicing a specific set of Neigong?

Here is a link to the daughter of Wei Shuren who inherited his system. Very interesting background compared to the "old ways" of expressing lineage. https://min.news/en/culture/8f342d6f034 ... b027c.html

Where in this article is the skill or exercises mentioned you are talking about?

[Bao]

Keep in mind that the Yang Chengfu lineage does not have/did not express this neigong element but Wang Yongquan, Wei Shuren and others of that era were able to show a skill that many could not understand and still don't. I will include myself as never experienced (training akin to the aforementioned) though I have seen others express that level and type of expression.

Excuse me, maybe my English is too crappy, but I have no idea what you mean. Do you mean that YCF lineage practitioners donate have the skills that Wei Shuren lineage have. Or do you mean that some kind of skill (which you don't even bother to explain) is only attainable by practicing a specific set of Neigong?

Here is a link to the daughter of Wei Shuren who inherited his system. Very interesting background compared to the "old ways" of expressing lineage. https:

Where in this article is the skill or exercises mentioned you are talking about?

[origami_itto]

This poses an interesting question.

What is taijiquan? Is it the choreography? I don't believe the particulars of the movements are what genuinely defines the art. They're just the scaffolding to assemble the creature. How you climb it and what you do with your hammer while you there are more important than what it looks like.

[everything]

I used to joke that it's just a Rorschach test. Because people tell you what they see/think. At that time, we think we are "correct" as far as we know. But that's just because that's what we "know" at that point in our learning. Until we learn a little bit more, then we realize "oh ok, this makes more sense". Eventually it shouldn't be so Rorschach-y. It should get more clear.

The scaffolding seems right to me at first. We have to go from "outside in" at first to start to figure out what happens "internally". So when they say "non doing", it's more that we "create conditions". We give the plant some sunlight and some water, but we don't "do" photosynthesis.

[Bao]

This poses an interesting question.

What is taijiquan? Is it the choreography? I don't believe the particulars of the movements are what genuinely defines the art.

IMHO, Taiijiquan is a set of core principles and the principles about how they are expressed. If you boil down the principles that every traditional complete Taijiquan style/school/lineage have and that all of them can agree about, then you have Taijiquan.