Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri on Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:04 pm

Bao wrote:
yeniseri wrote:Keep in mind that the Yang Chengfu lineage does not have/did not express this neigong element but Wang Yongquan, Wei Shuren and others of that era were able to show a skill that many could not understand and still don't. I will include myself as never experienced (training akin to the aforementioned) though I have seen others express that level and type of expression.


Excuse me, maybe my English is too crappy, but I have no idea what you mean. Do you mean that YCF lineage practitioners donate have the skills that Wei Shuren lineage have. Or do you mean that some kind of skill (which you don't even bother to explain) is only attainable by practicing a specific set of Neigong? ???

??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Here is a link to the daughter of Wei Shuren who inherited his system. Very interesting background compared to the "old ways" of expressing lineage. https://min.news/en/culture/8f342d6f034 ... b027c.html


Where in this article is the skill or exercises mentioned you are talking about?


1. Despite choreography and in spite of it, what is labelled current taijiquan (usually of the Yang Chengfu variant ;D ) I restate that I have never seen the external expression that Wang Yongquan or Wei Shuren have exhibited in those who have studied Yang Chengfu's style. Whether the missing Lao Liulu Taiji is a bridge or an adaptive element in jibengong/yangsheng/daoyin, etc I have no idea but I have heard and read about it. I have not seen it in any of those who studied Yang Chenfu, educator extraordinaire. Even Fu Zhongwen's branch does not show this Lao Liuli Taiji as part of their training. I do not have the answer but I see that this Lao Liuli Taiji is an interesting variable and I do not know the extent of it.

2. When I mentioned Wei SHuren's daughter, the link gave her background, affiliation and the people that trained with her! I attempted to show an omission that many of the master of yore lacked the depth of who taught them and the extent of training. If any of us truly have some knowledge of taijiquan's historical content, we will see that even member od the same family have differeing training requirements and many concepts at odds regarding expression of form. But that is OK! How do we explain it? INdividual body utility, function, size, etc is one determinat of form expression and it does not imply something "negative". It is just unique.

3. Do not believe anyone just because they say a thing, and myself is at the top of the list. I had previously suggested the use of Baidu and Sogou (China mainland search engines-they do have translators) but they are off somewhat but read for yourselves and investiagte. People have different experiences and they are unique. Look at one pattern. The "rice bowl" has many uses...Yang Luchan studied with Chen but he could not be next in line like Chen's sons..Yang established his own line and Wang Lanting was his best student..but again Wang could not inherit Yang style but he taught Li RUidong, who in turn originated Li style taijiquan..the list is endless ???
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby johnwang on Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:52 pm

Appledog wrote:27. Turn Back Quickly (shǎn tōng bèi) (7) 闪通背

Try to correct an error here.

肩通臂 -> 肩通背 -> 扇通背 -> 闪通背

In the past many years, the original term 肩通臂 had been changed many times and ended with 闪通背.
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:59 pm

And the original term is?
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:06 am

yeniseri wrote:
yeniseri wrote:Keep in mind that the Yang Chengfu lineage does not have/did not express this neigong element but Wang Yongquan, Wei Shuren and others of that era were able to show a skill that many could not understand and still don't.


1. Despite choreography and in spite of it, what is labelled current taijiquan (usually of the Yang Chengfu variant ;D ) I restate that I have never seen the external expression that Wang Yongquan or Wei Shuren have exhibited in those who have studied Yang Chengfu's style. Whether the missing Lao Liulu Taiji is a bridge or an adaptive element in jibengong/yangsheng/daoyin, etc I have no idea but I have heard and read about it. I have not seen it in any of those who studied Yang Chenfu, educator extraordinaire. Even Fu Zhongwen's branch does not show this


You still don't explain what you meant by skill. What skill?

"...Wang Yongquan, Wei Shuren and others of that era were able to show a skill that many could not understand and still don't."
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:32 am

Bao wrote:
"...Wang Yongquan, Wei Shuren and others of that era were able to show a skill that many could not understand and still don't."


:)

yes
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:34 am

Everybody knows the Yang family lost the good stuff before YCF was even born... :D

Chen Hsiu Feng, Standing in Front of Yang's Tomb, Usurps the Title of Head Disciple:
In 1872 Yang Lu Ch'an became ill and died and was brought to his native place for burial. His two sons and disciples carried his coffin to the hillside cemetery. When the coffin of the great Master of his generation had been lowered into the ground, the s enior disciple Chen Hsiu Feng suddenly stood up before the tomb of his deceased teacher and before the earth had even dried he declared, "Yang's T'ai Chi is no longer in the hands of his descendents!" As soon as the words were out, everyone was startled. Chen Hsiu Feng, without politeness, went on to point out that while the Master was alive his two sons had never practiced his art well. Therefore Yang's secret and miraculous techniques had not fallen into the hands of the two brothers; but only Chen Hsiu Feng himself had acquired the Yang family's genuine teachings. Thereupon, Chen Hsiu Feng patted his chest and declared, "I am the only head disciple of the second generation of Yang family T'ai Chi. If there is anyone who is not convinced, please come up and try conclusions with me." Yang Pan Hou and Yang Chien Hou never anticipated that this elder student would snatch away the title of Head Disciple even before the earth on their father's tomb had dried. They were furious and wanted to challenge the eld er disciple, but upon considering the matter they remembered that even in daily practice sessions they were no match for Chen. As soon as they practiced with him, they were either knocked out or thrown over. If they were to contest the issue at this time, there would be no advantage whatever. The common saying has it . . . "When the gentleman takes revenge, seventeen years is not too late." So Yang Pan Hou and Yang Chien Hou endured their shame and anger without saying a word. They merely shot fierce glances at Chen Hsiu Feng, and silently descended the hill.


Hard Practice To Become the Best and Recover Family Fame:
To take up the tale again, when Yang Pan Hou and Yang Chien Hou returned home, they suffered from their inexpressible anger. They also regretted that they had not trained seriously during their father's lifetime because they did not wish to endure the har dships involved. But now they were of a mind to study and practice diligently, so they took out their deceased father's secret manuals and practiced the techniques described in them. The proverb says, "There is nothing difficult under heaven; a persevering will can overcome any obstacle." Accordingly, Pan Hou and Chien Hou, after a period of hard practice, improved their skill by leaps and bounds. After three years they were no longer weaklings, so they went together to seek out Chen Hsiu Feng and challeng e him in order to recover by force the title "Yang Family Head Disciple." At that time Chen Hsiu Feng was teaching T'ai Chi in the Yen Ch'eng district of Honan and had accepted pupils there. Yang Pan Hou and Yang Chien Hou sought him out and found him. After a few cold words of greeting, they came to the point, "Elder disciple, did you not say that the genuine teachings of the Yang Family are no longer in the hands of Yang's descendents?" Chen Hsiu Feng averted his eyes and replied, "Ah, I forget . . . How long ago did I say that?" Chien Hou, seeing that he was feigning ignorance, became very angry and flatly pointed out, "Three years ago, when we carried our deceased father's coffin up the hill and had barely finished burying him, you said those words." Chen Hsiu Feng now put on the appearance of understanding completely and s aid with a hearty laugh, "Yes indeed! Three years ago I really did say that. But at that time I did it only to intimidate you two brothers to advance. Now all is well; you have practiced hard and after three years, the Yang Family title can return to your hands again." As soon as he had said this, Chen immediately stretched out his right hand and, lifting the large armchair near him with the sticking energy of his palm, moved it and set it down in front of the two brothers saying, "Very good. You two brothers are not unworthy of being named sons of the great master Yang. This chair can be considered the Head Disciple's Chair. Please sit down." When Chen Hsiu Feng showed off this technique, the Yang brothers looked at each other with their mouths hanging wide open in amazement.
How the Technique of Lifting the Armchair with the "Sticking Palm" Oppressed the Two Brothers:
The sticking energy of T'ai Chi is divided into three levels: highest, middle. and lowest. A persson with the highest form of T'ai Chi sticking energy can use his flat palm to lift up anything without exerting any strength through his fingers. In terms of Yang Style T'ai Chi, only this can be called genuine sticking energy. The middle level of this energy is described by the saying, "As soon as one touches his clothing, the opponent is immediately thrown over." That is to say, as soon as your palm touches the clothing of the other man, he is already in your trap. No sooner does your palm touch his clothing than he is thrown over. The phrase used in T'ai Chi practice, "Touching the opponent's clothing, he can be pushed down in (any of) eighteen ways" refers to this technique.
As for the lowest level of technique, it requires that one touch the opponent's body with the hand in order to make him fall, that is, one grasps the opponent's body or limbs. There are two methods. One is borrowing his energy to issue your own energy (receive-attack); the other is to entice the opponent to issue energy, then, after neutralizing, to knock him over. This kind of energy is the most elementary T'ai Chi technique.

Chen Hsiu Feng relied only on the sticking energy of his one palm to raise an armchair of several tens of catties and set it down lightly in front of the two brothers. This highest level of sticking energy even Yang Pan Hou and Yang Chien Hou considered beyond their reach. However, Chen Hsiu Feng's courteous yielding up of the title invisibly relieved the unhappy feeling in the hearts of the brothers, and this can be considered the time when they buried the hatchet and all ended happily.
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby everything on Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:42 am

lol. not everyone who is a child of a famous master of something can become that skilled. imagine if only Lionel Messi or Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan's lineages could gain great skill. Every single art and sport would no longer have anyone with great skill after a while since their kids and grandkids cannot match them. Yes, most people don't even know what the skill is in this case, think it doesn't exist, think it's all fascia or something else, so there is a gigantic "barrier to entry" just from lack of awareness. It probably peaked with that golden generation for many reasons, but it's hard to believe all the arts disappear.
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:13 am

oragami_itto wrote:Everybody knows the Yang family lost the good stuff before YCF was even born... :D




maybe what everyone knows is more of a question of what was what was taught, and why
relative to their own practice, what they can do,
and have experienced.


汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,

http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition



Brief background on 汪永泉Wang Yongquan (1904­---1987): a more complete background on master Wang Yonguan will be available when I translate the “front sections” (forward, and introduction) of the book.

Master Wang was a student of Yang Jianhou and Yang Chengfu, the second and third generations of Yang Family.

He also learned from his father, who was also a student of the Yang Elders. Master Wang’s specialty is the Middle Frame Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.

His students and grandstudents include but not limited to the famous Wei Shuren, Zhu Huai Yuan 朱懷元, and Shi Ming 石明. The PBS TV show Healing and the Mind by Bill Moyer (1995) introduced Shi Ming and the concept of Qi to a wide US aud


楊式太極拳的老前輩初到北京時,教前清一些子弟練太極拳。技擊的練法不合適,只教了養生 一套練法,而把技擊的拳架教給自家的子孫和徒弟。以後社會上所流傳的楊式太極拳就是養生 的一套。但有些人忽略了內功,只追求外形;有些人要用養生的拳架去練技擊,把太極拳練得走 了樣,無奇不有。這樣既不能很好地養生,也不能用以技擊。當然在一定情況下,也可以用以 技擊,但用的只是招,沒有術。


When the Yang Elders first went to Beijing, they taught the Qing Imperials Tai Chi Chuan. Since it was not appropriate to teach the fighting methods, they only taught the health methods, and reserved the fighting methods to their offsprings and indoor students. Therefore, the common Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan is the health methods. However, some people ignore the Neigong (Internal Practices), and only follow the forms; there are also people who use the “for health” forms to practice for fighting, making their Tai Chi Chuan all wrong, “nothing is too strange” {translator: anything goes}. In this way, it is no good for health, and it cannot be used for fighting. Under this situation, when you fight, you only have the outward appearance, without the inner methods.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:38 am

"As soon as one touches his clothing, the opponent is immediately thrown over." That is to say, as soon as your palm touches the clothing of the other man, he is already in your trap. No sooner does your palm touch his clothing than he is thrown over. The phrase used in T'ai Chi practice, "Touching the opponent's clothing, he can be pushed down in (any of) eighteen ways" refers to this technique.


always find it amazing, what is written is accepted
until its shown,,,then it becomes fake.. ;)
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby johnwang on Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:21 pm

wayne hansen wrote:And the original term is?

Energy is transferred from shoulder to the arm.
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Re: Reverse Enginering Taijiquan

Postby Quigga on Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:45 pm

Now isn't that goddamn interesting :D

Most Tai Chi is in the level of what I call weight management. People are concerned with handling their own and partner's weight. To have a chest filled with Tai Chi, you need to go beyond that.

The classic 10 requirements don't describe physical posture details or worse a way to lock your body into place, to give it a 'structure'. Instead what is talked about are Qi sensations while having ordinary posture that no one is suspicious of.

To go from weight management to Qi a loooooooooot of practice and changes in one's worldview are required. Not claiming I'm there, just scratching the surface :-)
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