Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri on Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:20 pm

I am sharing some 'secrets' a a way to show some didactic step by step elements to reenregize martial taijiquan, or better said, to give taiji a sting with the dragon tale. Nothing mystical here!
I cannot get any simpler but you have to do the 10,000 repetitions to be able to be 1/2 way proficient. I can only guess that many of the 'purusts' say this is not "internal therefore it is bogus. That's OK. If the hat does not fit, get a horse ;D







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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:52 pm

Not worried about internal/external
I have yet to see anything in SJ That I wasn’t taught in tai chi
The main thing SJ has is repiticion and competition
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri on Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:57 pm

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Basic concepts for taijiquan

Postby yeniseri on Wed May 11, 2022 10:29 pm

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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Sat May 14, 2022 1:44 pm

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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby johnwang on Sat May 14, 2022 4:35 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Not worried about internal/external
I have yet to see anything in SJ That I wasn’t taught in tai chi
The main thing SJ has is repiticion and competition

You may be too optimstic on this, In SC, there are over 62 categiries of leg/throwing skill and over 30 categories of hand skill.

Leg/throwing skill contains:

踢(Ti) - Forward kick,
撮(Cuo) - Scooping kick,
粘(Zhan) - Sticking kick,
撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting,
靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze,
彈(Tan) - Spring,
挑(Tiao) - Hooking kick,
纏(Chan) - Foot entangling,
合(He) - Inner hook,
掏(Tao) - Inner knee seizing,
穿(Chuan) - Fireman’s carry,
撿(Jian) - Foot picking,
沖(Chong) - Inner kick,
掛(Gua) - Inner heel sweep,
刀(Dao) - Inner sickle,
蹩(Bie) - Break,
撩(Liao) - Back kick,
扣(Kou) - Knee seizing,
切(Qie) - Front cut,
削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking,
擰(Ning) - Wheeling,
撳(Qin) - Pressing,
摟(Lou) - Spine lock,
搵(Wen) – Lifting,
揣(Chuai) – Overhead,
勾(Gou) - Back sickle,
抱(Bao) - Back raising,
轟(Hong) - Shoving,
裏(Li) - Back inner hook,
擓(Kuai) - Leg bending lift,
...

Hand skill contains:

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking
分(Fen) - Separate hands
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking
圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
抹(Mo) – Wiping
偏(Pian) – Head circling
夾(Jia) – Clamping head
摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
摀(Wu) – Face covering
速(Su) – Forehead push
墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
撈 (Lao) – Leg seize
環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
撒(Sa) – Casting
飄(Piao) - Floating hand
...
Last edited by johnwang on Sun May 15, 2022 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby johnwang on Tue May 24, 2022 6:26 pm

The major difference between Taiji and SC is most Taiji just use 1 contact point. SC uses multiple contact points.

I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Tue May 24, 2022 8:21 pm

johnwang wrote:The major difference between Taiji and SC is most Taiji just use 1 contact point. SC uses multiple contact points.



I think in practical free form application you're going to see a lot more two point contact. A third if needed for a throw.

Even in freestyle push hands you're looking at two points of contact.

I think using one point effectively is a matter of level differential. If you're just so much more beyond somebody that you can use just a single point, great, but you have options to fall back on.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Tue May 24, 2022 10:46 pm

origami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:The major difference between Taiji and SC is most Taiji just use 1 contact point. SC uses multiple contact points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwobwMS1sl0


I think in practical free form application you're going to see a lot more two point contact. A third if needed for a throw.

Even in freestyle push hands you're looking at two points of contact.

I think using one point effectively is a matter of level differential. If you're just so much more beyond somebody that you can use just a single point, great, but you have options to fall back on.

When training self-defense, it's impractical to believe a trained fighter will stand that close and just let you grab their wrists (freeze).

In this tongbeiquan (white headgear) vs bajiquan (BJ) fight, note the distance. And, when TB reaches for the lead hand, BJ reacts by retracting his hand and stepping back (weight shift). Using yin, ting and dong skills, TB hop steps into BJ's weak angle, while BJ is double weighted. TB's first point of contact is head control (not chasing hands) breaking BJ's balance. Sequence (setup) = lure (yin) -> listen (ting) -> issue (fa).

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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 25, 2022 3:00 am

marvin8 wrote:]
When training self-defense, it's impractical to believe a trained fighter will stand that close and just let you grab their wrists (freeze).


Where did I suggest anything of the sort? In fact if you refer to another thread I specifically advise AGAINST grabbing wrists.
EDIT: Oh you're talking about Sifu Wang's video.

I think the freeze is valid to demonstrate the geometry of a throw, for example, but yeah it's not how it would actually be setting up and pulling that off.
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed May 25, 2022 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 25, 2022 4:26 am

origami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:]
When training self-defense, it's impractical to believe a trained fighter will stand that close and just let you grab their wrists (freeze).


Where did I suggest anything of the sort? In fact if you refer to another thread I specifically advise AGAINST grabbing wrists.
EDIT: Oh you're talking about Sifu Wang's video.

I think the freeze is valid to demonstrate the geometry of a throw, for example, but yeah it's not how it would actually be setting up and pulling that off.

Exactly. Tai chi classics, "If the opponent does not move, I do not move. If the opponent moves, I am already there." "Position before submission." Zhang Yun, "One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly...."

I was just adding to your prior post about sequences.

origami_itto wrote:Yes I agree these sequences that require the opponent checking out completely to work seem a bit sketchy.

I like application study of the sort that looks at the offensive and defensive potential in every inch of a series of movement (a "posture", a "form", a "transition *BARF")

so the first part of the movement is an attack, we first assume it is successful and see what it does to their body

next we have them neutralize the attack, see where that leaves us both, and the next inch of the series of movement is explored

you work your way through the entire form like that and you can learn an awful lot about how bodies and Taijiquan work

then the next phase would be something like one-steps. You make one movement, say a straight punch to the chest, of course, not at power, just putting your fist there. Your opponent makes one movement to counter/block/attack/etc, you make one movement, they make one movement.

The connection between combat and chess becomes glaringly obvious when you study it like this.

Also, an opponent can be lured by/react to a reach, a step, a threat, etc.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 25, 2022 4:33 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:]
When training self-defense, it's impractical to believe a trained fighter will stand that close and just let you grab their wrists (freeze).


Where did I suggest anything of the sort? In fact if you refer to another thread I specifically advise AGAINST grabbing wrists.
EDIT: Oh you're talking about Sifu Wang's video.

I think the freeze is valid to demonstrate the geometry of a throw, for example, but yeah it's not how it would actually be setting up and pulling that off.

Exactly. Tai chi classics, "If the opponent does not move, I do not move. If the opponent moves, I am already there." "Position before submission." Zhang Yun, "One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly...."

I was just adding to your prior post about sequences.

origami_itto wrote:Yes I agree these sequences that require the opponent checking out completely to work seem a bit sketchy.

I like application study of the sort that looks at the offensive and defensive potential in every inch of a series of movement (a "posture", a "form", a "transition *BARF")

so the first part of the movement is an attack, we first assume it is successful and see what it does to their body

next we have them neutralize the attack, see where that leaves us both, and the next inch of the series of movement is explored

you work your way through the entire form like that and you can learn an awful lot about how bodies and Taijiquan work

then the next phase would be something like one-steps. You make one movement, say a straight punch to the chest, of course, not at power, just putting your fist there. Your opponent makes one movement to counter/block/attack/etc, you make one movement, they make one movement.

The connection between combat and chess becomes glaringly obvious when you study it like this.

Also, an opponent can be lured by/react to a reach, a step, a threat, etc.


Exactly.

When we talk about the 13 postures we usually only speak of the physical movements. Each also has efficacy on the mental and spiritual planes of interaction.

The most obvious is split, taking the mind away from the effective intention through a feint or other misleading movement, but they all have uses.

They can be purely mental as in when approaching a challenge or debate, or bridge to the physical by controlling the information we're giving our opponent through our posture and movement which expresses our spirit.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 25, 2022 5:30 am

marvin8 wrote:Exactly. Tai chi classics, "If the opponent does not move, I do not move. If the opponent moves, I am already there." "Position before submission." Zhang Yun, "One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly...."


ON this, I feel like I already posted about the idea today so forgive me if that's the case, but I wanted to share some thoughts on this.

In many sport contexts, fighters are penalized for showing insufficient aggression. Sitting and waiting is not an acceptable strategy according to the rule sets.

So in a sport context, you don't want to just be flailing pointlessly, penetrating an opponent's guard and opening them up is an important part of your toolbox.

In a self defense context, the game is completely different. Winning is surviving with as little damage as possible. You want to minimize contact and struggle. Best case scenario they change their mind and walk off. You don't want to appear to be an aggressor in the eyes of bystanders, cameras, or the law, or even your opponent if you can help it.

So facing an enemy in self defense, you don't need to attack, you don't want to attack. Focus purely on reading their intention and countering. When they move to attack you, they will expose something, exploit that. If they don't move to attack you, great, you won. Get on about your business. But if they do attack, because you spend hours every day maximizing the efficiency of your movement and focus you can read their intention at any number of points from impulse to action and respond intelligently to it.

This simple adjustment in outlook and focus can save a massive amount of energy and drastically increase your combat efficacy IMHO. If nothing else it helps reduce the number of variables you have to work with.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 25, 2022 6:49 am

origami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Exactly. Tai chi classics, "If the opponent does not move, I do not move. If the opponent moves, I am already there." "Position before submission." Zhang Yun, "One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly...."

In a self defense context, the game is completely different. Winning is surviving with as little damage as possible. You want to minimize contact and struggle. Best case scenario they change their mind and walk off. You don't want to appear to be an aggressor in the eyes of bystanders, cameras, or the law, or even your opponent if you can help it.

So facing an enemy in self defense, you don't need to attack, you don't want to attack. Focus purely on reading their intention and countering. When they move to attack you, they will expose something, exploit that. If they don't move to attack you, great, you won. Get on about your business. But if they do attack, because you spend hours every day maximizing the efficiency of your movement and focus you can read their intention at any number of points from impulse to action and respond intelligently to it.

This simple adjustment in outlook and focus can save a massive amount of energy and drastically increase your combat efficacy IMHO. If nothing else it helps reduce the number of variables you have to work with.

Not sure the question. I don't see that much difference. Yin, ting, na, fa. peng, lu, ji, etc. works in the ring, as well as the street. The process is the same. But in the street, you don't want to appear to be making the first move.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby windwalker on Wed May 25, 2022 7:18 am

All CMA has to address the same things...

How it does this depends on the technology used for doing so,,,reflected in the many methods, "styles" developed
as counters to other methods of the time...or as whats thought to be "new" technologies developed ahead of the time.

some of what is mentioned functions the way it does because of "technology" developed and used. ..
one may have the way to develop it, but not the method to put it to use.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvGdGT6QlVc

More is not always better, a way of looking at systems wide, or narrow

for example.

You may have heard that gongfu styles can also be divided into "closed" and "open" systems, as well as "narrow" and "wide" systems.

A "narrow" system is one that specifies a particular response for a particular attack. So for every possible attack, there is a specific response. And because there are a great many possible attacks, there are also a great may specifc techniques to counter them. With "narrow" systems, you have A LOT of techniques -- like the proverbial 108 hand techniques, for instance.

A "wide" system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them. So for instance, you might only have 5 or 6 basic punches... but many "changes" associated with those punches. See also Baqua, with it's emphasis on changes.


https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 6&start=15
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 25, 2022 8:08 am, edited 5 times in total.
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