Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 25, 2022 7:36 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Exactly. Tai chi classics, "If the opponent does not move, I do not move. If the opponent moves, I am already there." "Position before submission." Zhang Yun, "One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly...."

In a self defense context, the game is completely different. Winning is surviving with as little damage as possible. You want to minimize contact and struggle. Best case scenario they change their mind and walk off. You don't want to appear to be an aggressor in the eyes of bystanders, cameras, or the law, or even your opponent if you can help it.

So facing an enemy in self defense, you don't need to attack, you don't want to attack. Focus purely on reading their intention and countering. When they move to attack you, they will expose something, exploit that. If they don't move to attack you, great, you won. Get on about your business. But if they do attack, because you spend hours every day maximizing the efficiency of your movement and focus you can read their intention at any number of points from impulse to action and respond intelligently to it.

This simple adjustment in outlook and focus can save a massive amount of energy and drastically increase your combat efficacy IMHO. If nothing else it helps reduce the number of variables you have to work with.

Not sure the question. I don't see that much difference. Yin, ting, na, fa. peng, lu, ji, etc. works in the ring, as well as the street. The process is the same. But in the street, you don't want to appear to be making the first move.


I mean that not only do you not want to appear to be making the first move, you don't even need to worry about the first move. That whole area of combat can be discarded from your concern. Just sit and wait for them to open themselves up.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 25, 2022 2:44 pm

origami_itto wrote:I mean that not only do you not want to appear to be making the first move, you don't even need to worry about the first move. That whole area of combat can be discarded from your concern. Just sit and wait for them to open themselves up.

No. As the opponent approaches, you want to lure (yin) their attack to control it's timing and placement, as much as possible. As you draw their energy, you want to change positions and issue (fa). Theoretically, it's safer than "waiting" for and reading the opponent's own attack.

Controlling the centerline and drawing the opponent's overhand right:

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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby everything on Wed May 25, 2022 3:56 pm

I don't understand the premise. It seems to require "bad" definitions of taijiquan.

- if we define taijiquan as some kind of slow shaolin or slow shuaijiao, shouldn't we just do those? rather than the watered down thing?
- if we define it as some philosophical overlay, shouldn't we just do those other things and make those things more "yin/yang" balanced or more "soft"?
- if we define it as "something else", it gets more difficult. "boxing" also doesn't have "shuaijiao" in it, but has some "grappling" and "dirty boxing".

so as Elon Musk says, first step to pretty much anything (me paraphrasing) is make your requirements/questions less dumb. what problem do we want to solve?
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 25, 2022 4:02 pm

Well it's an active waiting, and sure, luring is valid, presenting a honeypot target.

What I'm saying is that this is a basic game theory sort of question. https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/23/3/607/223899

Essentially we make the assumption that to attack is to expose a weakness. If nothing else the weakness is committing to a course of action that may be incorrect.

So any attack we make, we want to maximize effectiveness by minimizing their ability to respond to it. We throw out initiating attacks unless they are just so clear and simple and obvious they don't need any work. They attack, we counter. We don't have to think about penetrating guard or opening, they will do all of that for us.

So this is like the other thing we were talking about, controlling the opponent through our own movement and postures, along with ensuring we're in a posture ready to deal with whatever is coming our way. Showing them the open doors we want them to walk through.

In this example, "in the street" the guy on the right could be saying "hey I don't want any trouble" and putting his hands up defensively. If the guy trying to hurt him is dumb enough to try to attack between them, so be it. It proves the theory, he attacks, exposes a weakness that is capitalized on in a counter.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 25, 2022 5:16 pm

everything wrote:I don't understand the premise. It seems to require "bad" definitions of taijiquan.

- if we define taijiquan as some kind of slow shaolin or slow shuaijiao, shouldn't we just do those? rather than the watered down thing?
- if we define it as some philosophical overlay, shouldn't we just do those other things and make those things more "yin/yang" balanced or more "soft"?
- if we define it as "something else", it gets more difficult. "boxing" also doesn't have "shuaijiao" in it, but has some "grappling" and "dirty boxing".

so as Elon Musk says, first step to pretty much anything (me paraphrasing) is make your requirements/questions less dumb. what problem do we want to solve?

I am loosely using similar terms, not defining taiji, philosophy or shuaijiao. Never said boxing has shuaijiao. MMA has throws, etc.

origami_itto wrote:In this example, "in the street" the guy on the right could be saying "hey I don't want any trouble" and putting his hands up defensively. If the guy trying to hurt him is dumb enough to try to attack between them, so be it. It proves the theory, he attacks, exposes a weakness that is capitalized on in a counter.

Yes. I don't know if you're asking a question, agreeing or disagreeing.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 25, 2022 6:42 pm

Everything, bro... Elon musk has an easy plan for success, get a shit ton of startup capital from your dad's blood emerald mine.

Marvin I think I'm agreeing mostly. In the match of course there is still a lot of aggression and defensiveness being displayed which you wouldn't necessarily want.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby windwalker on Wed May 25, 2022 7:23 pm

One of the reasons for not using shuaijiao, concepts ie "wrestling/grappling, outlined in the clip whether one agrees with it or not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyEBWQpS4wI
Neijiaquan: Wrestling is the power of leverage. What is traditional martial arts?



He contrasts it with impact "outer method" and the ability to affect the center directly "inner method" as different methods...

One of the reasons why taiji might throw in a different way, is because the way, how and what it expresses power is different
for those that follow this method..

While the teacher outlines what he feels are inner methods...

he's not saying that throwing is not effective or not used


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy0-Dt9mPiI
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 25, 2022 7:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Thu May 26, 2022 6:02 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:In this example, "in the street" the guy on the right could be saying "hey I don't want any trouble" and putting his hands up defensively. If the guy trying to hurt him is dumb enough to try to attack between them, so be it. It proves the theory, he attacks, exposes a weakness that is capitalized on in a counter.

Yes. I don't know if you're asking a question, agreeing or disagreeing.


So in mulling this over, the situation itself I don't think is one I'd like to be in.

In self defense situations I want it over in seconds, period. As soon as we make contact i want them to go down. Maybe that isn't always possible, but that's the goal. Maybe I just want to control them, maybe I just want to mess around and Dominate them to show them how much tougher I am. I can only do those if I can get it on contact.

And it might be layers of control, where I'm just tightening the degrees of freedom they have until there's nothing left.

In either case though, it doesn't look quite like a fight until it's a fight. They teach you in crowd control and security to talk with your hands so you always have them up and between you and a potential troublemaker. It doesn't look like a guard, but i'ts a guard. Don't cross your arms or stand at parade rest like so much Chris Rock sticking his chin out.

So then, hands up, weight in one leg, relaxed with no conflict displayed in your body or face. My everyday stance, as Mitamoto Musashi advises, is my fighting stance. I do not seek to attack anyone. If anyone chooses to attack me then I simply end that attack as efficiently and humanely as possible given the dynamics of the situation.

And what I'm describing is not a ring sport strategy. I simply don't think it would be effective. You're talking about concealing preparedness and avoiding conflict. A ring sport is about intense preparation for the specific situation and seeking conflict. We may look at conflict and say "fighting is fighting" but really it is not.

I see fighting as a means of restoring harmony, not multiplying violence. Preventing harm more than harming. And of course, the specific skills and strategies derived from Taijiquan that I apply to physical confrontation also apply to mental and spiritual conflict. Again, my everyday stance is my fighting stance, spiritually and mentally as well. If a confrontation gets to the point where I need to deal with it physically I would consider it as much of a failure as feeding my family taco bell five nights a week. It means I failed to deal with it spiritually or mentally.

And I don't know about anybody else, but I cannot be among people and not subconsciously scan and inventory where I would need to touch them to take control based on our relative position and posture. It's not a tense hypervigilance so much as that is the fighting mindset, to take everything in to have it ready when you need it.

Honestly though, even that is fading because it seems like I can touch someone who doesn't train literally anywhere and take their balance without trying these days. I have to be conscious to not knock them over.

Be evasive, avoid conflict, remember that the violence you inflict follows Newton's third law, physically, mentally, and spiritually.

I don't mean to lecture, just musing before a day of corporate Zoom nonsense that doesn't really matter.

Tactics wise, when push literally comes to shove, that clip is aces.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Thu May 26, 2022 7:19 am

origami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:In this example, "in the street" the guy on the right could be saying "hey I don't want any trouble" and putting his hands up defensively. If the guy trying to hurt him is dumb enough to try to attack between them, so be it. It proves the theory, he attacks, exposes a weakness that is capitalized on in a counter.

Yes. I don't know if you're asking a question, agreeing or disagreeing.

In either case though, it doesn't look quite like a fight until it's a fight. They teach you in crowd control and security to talk with your hands so you always have them up and between you and a potential troublemaker. It doesn't look like a guard, but i'ts a guard. Don't cross your arms or stand at parade rest like so much Chris Rock sticking his chin out.

So then, hands up, weight in one leg, relaxed with no conflict displayed in your body or face. My everyday stance, as Mitamoto Musashi advises, is my fighting stance. I do not seek to attack anyone. If anyone chooses to attack me then I simply end that attack as efficiently and humanely as possible given the dynamics of the situation.

And what I'm describing is not a ring sport strategy. I simply don't think it would be effective. You're talking about concealing preparedness and avoiding conflict. A ring sport is about intense preparation for the specific situation and seeking conflict. We may look at conflict and say "fighting is fighting" but really it is not.

Right. Different contexts, but similar concept. In the clip, Dillashaw is actively throwing punches at Cejudo. Regardless of look, the guard (ward off) should be relaxed and move depending on where the attacker's hands are and your face is, occupying the centerline for both offense and defense.

origami_itto wrote: I see fighting as a means of restoring harmony, not multiplying violence. Preventing harm more than harming....

Tactics wise, when push literally comes to shove, that clip is aces.

I agree. Depending on level of threat, I may want to start looking harmless and use the least amount of force to control the situation.

Relaxed moving guard and creating a superior position (angle):

Image


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzZZ1ZpFEz0
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri on Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:29 pm

THe principles and concepts are the same despite the name baquazhang!

Last edited by yeniseri on Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri on Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:14 am

This hsingyi fellow uses (appearance and demonstration) more shuai concepts/principles more than many and it is instructive (from my point of view)
Just a part of training, no more no less....

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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:56 am

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Re: Shuaijiao conceps for Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:36 pm

yeniseri wrote:This hsingyi fellow uses (appearance and demonstration) more shuai concepts/principles more than many and it is instructive (from my point of view)
Just a part of training, no more no less....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2_DN9rwWF8

Looking at the feeder here, the demo video was apparently sped up and edited. Also at 1 minute, the feeder switches to southpaw stance. So, Liang (a docu here) can do a right front cut/osoto gari.

At Alex Volkanovski vs Korean Zombie, Alex (UFC Featherweight Champion) drills and executes:

1. Starting from outside fighting range, Alex steps right leading Zombie (in orthodox stance) to step left 2. Alex raises lead hand (yin) 3. listens (ting) for Zombie to shift his weight to the back foot (double weight) 4. Alex controls Zombie's rear arm and center with his lead hand (na, hua) 5. then hop steps and issues (fa) left front cut/osoto gari:

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u435qs2Obig&t=10m20s
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